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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines => Bloodlines Games General Discussion => Topic started by: MasterVampire on July 19, 2018, 12:41:53 AM

Title: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: MasterVampire on July 19, 2018, 12:41:53 AM
So VTMB came out in 2004.
Back then there were no smartphones.

But today everyone has a phone with a camera.
There’s also the rise of social media, the internet, and lots more surveillance with cctv cameras everywhere.

So would it be only a matter of time before vampires are exposed and hunted down ?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: DiamondBorne on July 19, 2018, 12:53:37 AM
Nah. The human were too busy killing each other. The real question is, were Illuminati real and is entirely human faction, what will be their stance towards kindred organizations? kowtow to us? try to expose us? working with us as an equal?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: IanW on July 19, 2018, 05:17:32 AM
Vampire 5th Edition comes out next month. A new concern for vampires is the "Second Inquisition": although society at large is still mostly ignorant, governments and some other institutions are aware of the existence of vampires, and use technology like IR cameras and "metal detectors" at airports and such in order to find them.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 19, 2018, 04:57:35 PM
The real question is how long the masquerade will last, since the kindred is bound to be discovered by the majority sooner rather than later.
In my humble opinion, since I lack the statistical information on the current numbers of sect devotees, I think that the kindred is getting too reckless. Camarilla is to my knowledge crumbling at a considerable pace, anarchs are a loose bunch and the Sabat, is well, Sabat. Maybe I will be harshly judged for this, but I would like WoD to have a definite end, since no masquerade can go on forever - if we apply the whole system of degradation to kindred as a whole, there must come a point of "global withering" when the blood becomes to weak to survive. Adding artificial length to the universe would be counter-productive in my opinion.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 19, 2018, 11:42:41 PM
The real question is how long the masquerade will last, since the kindred is bound to be discovered by the majority sooner rather than later.
In my humble opinion, since I lack the statistical information on the current numbers of sect devotees, I think that the kindred is getting too reckless. Camarilla is to my knowledge crumbling at a considerable pace, anarchs are a loose bunch and the Sabat, is well, Sabat. Maybe I will be harshly judged for this, but I would like WoD to have a definite end, since no masquerade can go on forever - if we apply the whole system of degradation to kindred as a whole, there must come a point of "global withering" when the blood becomes to weak to survive. Adding artificial length to the universe would be counter-productive in my opinion.

The Masquerade will fail, it is inevitable due to progress of technology and media of the humanity. The real question is how the Kindred across the planet will respond to this. I am sure many can actually make lucrative deals with governments across the world. For example, the Camarilla could help strengthen the NATO, the EU as a bulwark against the other political entities of the world.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 20, 2018, 07:21:09 AM
Cellphone cameras and internet pix were around since late 90's. Social media and smartphones are clearly overestimated. The former and public opinion could be easily manipulated or controlled. Nothing essential was changed since Modern Nights.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Wesp5 on July 20, 2018, 08:56:58 AM
Cellphone cameras and internet pix were around since late 90's. Social media and smartphones are clearly overestimated. The former and public opinion could be easily manipulated or controlled. Nothing essential was changed since Modern Nights.

Exactly. Just look at all the fake news problems, especially in the US. People have better technology but a lot have not been getting more intelligent, rather the other way around with all these oligarchs being elected...
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 20, 2018, 10:32:13 AM
Exactly. Just look at all the fake news problems, especially in the US. People have better technology but a lot have not been getting more intelligent, rather the other way around with all these oligarchs being elected...

There is no reason why technology should improve the intelligence of people in the first place. But I also doubt that people are getting dumber, perhaps more easily manipulated by propaganda would be more accurate. Then again, American society is very individualistic. A lone individual is the most easy target to manipulate, as the Greek philosophers noted long ago.

Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 20, 2018, 01:09:58 PM
Exactly. Just look at all the fake news problems, especially in the US. People have better technology but a lot have not been getting more intelligent, rather the other way around with all these oligarchs being elected...

There is another phenomenon, so-called informational overload. I have doubts that bloodsucker videos would surprise anyone these days or even attract any attention. They will drown in that moosh like everything else.

As for the individualism, I would not blame it, modern society is rather selfish or wannabe than individualistic in the original meaning. People care only about themselves, but still doesn't want to think by themselves, which makes them easy targets.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Wesp5 on July 20, 2018, 01:16:09 PM
There is another phenomenon, so-called informational overload. I have doubts that bloodsucker videos would surprise anyone these days or even attract any attention. They will drown in that moosh like everything else.

Yeah, I can see it now "Photoshopped!" :)
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 20, 2018, 03:32:36 PM
Or, rather, "I admire your skills, dude".
Regarding videos, some mean shorts from 90's could be easily mistaken for snuff films, and even were, by the police and FBI no less. So, I doubt such a fvckups could be considered a masquerade violation any more.
Another point, this modern BS tech is nothing new, wouldn't name a cross between a cellphone, a cheap digital camera and a pad on castrated Ubuntu with wifi exactly an invention. It's buggy, broken by design, has abominable talk/standby time, and potentially vulnerable, which will attract an attention of tech-savvy cainites for sure. Not to say it equally sucks both as a phone and portable PC.
Social networks would be used for tracking down mortals, why bother with police databases if they're filling dossiers on themselves and posting that in public?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 20, 2018, 04:47:14 PM
Or, rather, "I admire your skills, dude".
Regarding videos, some mean shorts from 90's could be easily mistaken for snuff films, and even were, by the police and FBI no less. So, I doubt such a fvckups could be considered a masquerade violation any more.
Another point, this modern BS tech is nothing new, wouldn't name a cross between a cellphone, a cheap digital camera and a pad on castrated Ubuntu with wifi exactly an invention. It's buggy, broken by design, has abominable talk/standby time, and potentially vulnerable, which will attract an attention of tech-savvy cainites for sure. Not to say it equally sucks both as a phone and portable PC.
Social networks would be used for tracking down mortals, why bother with police databases if they're filling dossiers on themselves and posting that in public?

But that would go only so far.
Individualism can be a serious threat and single right man in the right place would be enough to throw a wrench into the entire operation and bring it down. Not all people live in the US or in the same manner as the mentioned, so accepting one human mentality as the dominant example would be wrong and would not be applicable in every scenario and on every scale. Some societies are more religious and conservative so there is a lower chance of such manipulation... for example, in my country social networks are not so common or dominant as they are in the US and the most of the Western world so tracking people would be more difficult, plus the harsh times that the people in the Balkans have been exposed to have birthed a more callous and suspicious bunch... two wars and one bombing in the past twenty-five years have created a closed society that would easily shrug off any kindred influence and burn the mentioned far more easily. In my environment, out of 10 people for example, it is completely normal for at least three not to have facebook and every other social network. In my country many things are still being done in an "analog" fashion rather than digital so data exploitation would be tedious.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 20, 2018, 05:22:42 PM
As for the individualism, I would not blame it, modern society is rather selfish or wannabe than individualistic in the original meaning. People care only about themselves, but still doesn't want to think by themselves, which makes them easy targets.

Rampant consumerism and hedonism that plagues the West serves only to isolate the individual and break his/her social bonds. Such a person is highly vulnerable to manipulation. But this is a inevitable logical conclusion to any society that puts the freedom of the individual as its highest moral virtue.

But, considering the topic is about something else, I will no longer comment on this issue.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 20, 2018, 05:26:39 PM
Some societies are more religious and conservative so there is a lower chance of such manipulation... for example, in my country social networks are not so common or dominant as they are in the US and the most of the Western world so tracking people would be more difficult, plus the harsh times that the people in the Balkans have been exposed to have birthed a more callous and suspicious bunch... two wars and one bombing in the past twenty-five years have created a closed society that would easily shrug off any kindred influence and burn the mentioned far more easily.

Serbia?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 20, 2018, 05:32:13 PM
Some societies are more religious and conservative so there is a lower chance of such manipulation... for example, in my country social networks are not so common or dominant as they are in the US and the most of the Western world so tracking people would be more difficult, plus the harsh times that the people in the Balkans have been exposed to have birthed a more callous and suspicious bunch... two wars and one bombing in the past twenty-five years have created a closed society that would easily shrug off any kindred influence and burn the mentioned far more easily.

Serbia?

Right on.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 20, 2018, 05:51:14 PM
But that would go only so far.
Individualism can be a serious threat and single right man in the right place would be enough to throw a wrench into the entire operation and bring it down...
Indeed, such a treat was everpresent. The chain reaction could have started in any era, not necessary 21th century.
Conservative societes are more difficult to infiltrate, but easier to control or manipulate from within once the work is done. It only means the cainites would use more old fashioned analog means instead.

But this is a inevitable logical conclusion to any society that puts the freedom of the individual as its highest moral virtue.
More like "freedom to rob others of their freedom". Another systems aren't behaving any more gracefully when corrupted and rotting, which is imminent end of carbon-based life.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 20, 2018, 06:39:00 PM
Right on.

Greetings from Croatia.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 20, 2018, 06:51:33 PM
Right on.

Greetings from Croatia.

Warm Greetings.

What Deicide has said is correct without doubt, but still a more closed and regulated society is far more complicated to penetrate and maintain that power, also it has an "auto-defense" mechanism that would be able to remove or curb outside influence. Besides, to acquire and maintain power are two different things, that history has already proven. Failure to recognize it had already doomed many.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 20, 2018, 09:25:27 PM
What Deicide has said is correct without doubt, but still a more closed and regulated society is far more complicated to penetrate and maintain that power, also it has an "auto-defense" mechanism that would be able to remove or curb outside influence. Besides, to acquire and maintain power are two different things, that history has already proven. Failure to recognize it had already doomed many.

Through my life, I have read many books on geopolitics but also books which explain the methodologies of subversion and effective propaganda. The society or the nation that is unified by language, culture, values, religion and ethnicity is far more harder to infiltrate and subvert from within. Which nations are more vulnerable to subversion? Japan, Poland, Russia, Vietnam and Ethiopia or America, Sweden, Bosnia, Syria, Lebanon and India?

But I bring nothing new to the table, for this has been known since the times of Plato and Aristotle. Famous Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun wrote numerous books on rise and fall of societies.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 20, 2018, 11:20:24 PM
As to the globally blown Masquerade, I would rather prefer a set of scenarios for different eras and countries if anyone wants to play that. Such a canonical end ruins the whole purpose of the game by turning cainites into mutants either working for humans or ruling them.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 21, 2018, 10:08:05 AM
I'm going out on a limb here, but there is truth in "all good things must come to an end."
For me the true lure of WoD is the bleak atmosphere and the omnipresent feeling of hopelessness, but as soon as that shroud of mystery and obscurity dissipates, the magic is gone. This risk is getting only bigger as time progresses and as the universe wideness with numerous add-ons and additional supplements.
I am just worried that the universe will suffer the fate of Warhammer for example, with numerous releases on all media that are really becoming vapid and seriously out of character, just to protract the universe (return of the primarchs etc...). The way Vampire is going is really reminiscent of the former, even instilling fear that the kindred will fall into the service of the state in a C-rated quasi-sci-fi horror dystopia.
I would rather have it ended than kept alive by a respirator of jaded and/or insipid additions, since my confidence that it will mature well is really on glass pillars. I know that the entire history of mankind is the actual frame for the setting of WoD, but as the existence of humans loses its relevance and flavor the kindred are bound to follow the trend, since the kine is the both smoke-screen and primary
sustenance so what happens in the world of kine, happens in the world of kindred and vice-versa.
Also, I remember hearing the theories, rumors, possibilities and etc regarding the sequel to Bloodlines and can't help but to shudder at what it could possibly bring into the world: social justice warriors, pointless nudity and sex etc.
Before I get crucified for the latter sentence, just compare Bloodlines and Witcher for example: Bloodlines did not need abundant amounts of pointless sex and nudity to portray an adult world where morality is at best grey, nor the amount of cussing was the same and yet we have a compelling story that does not lose its charm even after 20+ plathroughs stretched over a course of several years. That is why I consider Witcher to be a cheap and poor game, using the most tried and profane recepies to attract the public, while Bloodlines utilizes excellent narrative to further its reach.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 21, 2018, 12:31:10 PM
Back to the societes topic, I think that the individualistic, being the most accessible for the new players, is, parodoxically, the hardest to subvert, as that means one should corrupt in some way every individual member since there is no definition of majority and very few core concepts, which violation would cause a backslash without a doubt. Another question that individualism is as rare as diamonds and what's usually marketed under it's name is anything but it. For example, in Western world it's competition.

Speaking of the end of VtM, there is no need in war to end all wars, if one does not want to keep it alive, don't continue it, problem solved. The second attempt in canonical apocalypse will, the most probably, achieve a different effect, causing an unhappy part of audience to demand a resurrection and another part to stop taking the setting seriously. That will seem exactly as if devs are whoring for attention and trying to peddle an another useless book.
Besides, I could not see an end to this until mankind shall stop parasiting on itself. The idea of superparasite is as timeless as ever, and, probably, will remain that way for a long time.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 21, 2018, 04:15:03 PM
Also, I remember hearing the theories, rumors, possibilities and etc regarding the sequel to Bloodlines and can't help but to shudder at what it could possibly bring into the world: social justice warriors, pointless nudity and sex etc.
Before I get crucified for the latter sentence, just compare Bloodlines and Witcher for example: Bloodlines did not need abundant amounts of pointless sex and nudity to portray an adult world where morality is at best grey, nor the amount of cussing was the same and yet we have a compelling story that does not lose its charm even after 20+ plathroughs stretched over a course of several years. That is why I consider Witcher to be a cheap and poor game, using the most tried and profane recepies to attract the public, while Bloodlines utilizes excellent narrative to further its reach.

The Witcher is a masterfully created story/world if we compare it to other modern popular role playing games. Personally, I remain deeply fond of the Witcher series, for it is the first time Slavic mythology and lore was presented to the world. Kao Slaven, iznimno to cijenim.

You make a good point, however all of this is but a glimpse of a far greater problem; the fact that modern audience is getting more and more desensitized to various subtle stimuli. Therefore they need more and more stronger emotions to be capable of investing themselves in story. Why do you think Game of Thrones series is so popular? It has hardly any originality in it, but people love the senseless violence and the nudity/sex. 

As for social justice warriors, I remember reading revised Tzimisce clanbook and in chapter about their history, they are horrified at racism and Holocaust. Tzimisce? Horrified by racism and genocide? Heh.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 21, 2018, 04:42:09 PM
As for social justice warriors, I remember reading revised Tzimisce clanbook and in chapter about their history, they are horrified at racism and Holocaust. Tzimisce? Horrified by racism and genocide? Heh.
That's some fanservice BS. Indeed they could consider it pointless at best and stupid at worst, but horrified because a Jew or two had met the furnace? Are you damn kidding?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 21, 2018, 05:17:35 PM
As for social justice warriors, I remember reading revised Tzimisce clanbook and in chapter about their history, they are horrified at racism and Holocaust. Tzimisce? Horrified by racism and genocide? Heh.
That's some fanservice BS. Indeed they could consider it pointless at best and stupid at worst, but horrified because a Jew or two had met the furnace? Are you damn kidding?

That is absolutely hilarious... the Tsimisze being disgusted by holocaust? Now I've heard everything.

Regarding the mentioned lack of sensibility - it is easier to include a visual representation of an idea to horrify or portray a message that put more effort in the story.
I perfectly understand the value of Witcher in representing the Slavic mythos, but the manner through which the game frequently portrays it doesn't sit well with me. I gave the game a chance, played the assassin of kings, but due the mentioned profanity I simply gave up... however I do understand that some people like it for different reasons and are able to look past its flaws, so I do not judge. The game has its beautiful highlights and captivating scenes, it is the matter of taste.
I remember playing Bloodlines for the first time back in the day, when I understood the horrid childhood of Tourette or when I saw what Gimble was all about - Jeanette and Therese, apart from the ambiguity, present everything through dialogue in a master-crafted emotionally tense scene where you as the third party are actively taking part in the resolution. No need for graphical illustration, thus concluding that the effort is the most important thing.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 21, 2018, 06:06:47 PM
Then I would strongly recommend Witcher I, which has nothing in common with further titles but the leading character name, even his graphic design is completely different. I bet you will see what had gone wrong. By all means, the trademark pointless sex and cursing is here, but the way it was used... While the most of characters express themselves literary, the some swear a lot, in much more creative and amusing fashion than 2/3.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 21, 2018, 06:15:43 PM
Then I would strongly recommend Witcher I, which has nothing in common with further titles but the leading character name, even graphic design is completely different. I bet you will see what had gone wrong.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll try it out. +1
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 21, 2018, 06:46:36 PM
That is absolutely hilarious... the Tsimisze being disgusted by holocaust? Now I've heard everything.

Also, for user Deicide,

Yeah, I find it profoundly tragicomic. The legendary Tzimisce, lords and ladies of unimaginable suffering, are aghast at the Holocaust and racism. Also, it appears some people are desperately trying to portray White Wolf in negative light. 

Quote
The blog Dogs with Dice recently came out with an article on WWG connection to alt-right.

His reasoning is that Vampire: The Masquerade shows race superiority, facsist tendencies of the masquerade, sexualization of women, hiring of people who supported Gamergate, and a whole other list of reasons.

Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 21, 2018, 08:40:03 PM
If they wanted to make a nod to political correctness they even haven't tried to do that in proper, since they could do the same perfectly in character, emphasising the cold open-mindedness for which Tzimisce are known for.
But it seems even this travesty weren't enough for some clinically politically correct people.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 22, 2018, 12:12:02 AM
If they wanted to make a nod to political correctness they even haven't tried to do that in proper, since they could do the same perfectly in character, emphasising the cold open-mindedness for which Tzimisce are known for.
But it seems even this travesty weren't enough for some clinicaly politically correct people.

I sincerely doubt people who write such articles have any semblance of intellectual honesty. You want to sell some news or information? Make it scandalous and accusing with worst of terms, people flock to such shit in droves.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 22, 2018, 12:22:31 AM
I assume it's a mix of both, a clickbait and the mentioned diagnosis, still there is a plenty of people who sincerely buy such a wares, for I'm sure it takes the latter to came up with such an article. Real VtM fan wouldn't bash it like that and someone not touched by political correctness would've chosen a different way of noisemaking.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 22, 2018, 01:07:05 AM
I assume it's a mix of both, a clickbait and the mentioned diagnosis, still there is a plenty of people who sincerely buy such a wares, for I'm sure it takes the latter to came up with such an article. Real VtM fan wouldn't bash it like that and someone not touched by political correctness would've chosen a different way of noisemaking.

Most likely it is indeed a potent mix of both. Still, it can do damage. The extremist voices are usually the loudest voices.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Griezz on July 22, 2018, 03:04:58 AM
No, the rise of smartphones and CCTV should not provide much of an impediment to the Masquerade. Why? Simple - because people are putting less and less faith in what they hear and see.

Here are two short phrases which justify this opinion: "Hollywood" and "fake news". For the first, remember that, in the game itself, pawn store owner Trip sees even a Nosferatur face-to-face and he just puts it down to a cool makeup job; why should the general public behave any differently? Don't they see much weirder, scarier and horrible stuff all the time in their popular media?

As for the second term, we are seeing how the North American culture seems to be growing more and more disenchanted, disconnected and disbelieving of the news media in whatever they report, especially if what they report (no matter what kind of proof they may have) goes against our personal beliefs. When people turn to evangelists or politicians to decide whether or not science is accurate, there's a major problem. In a world of Alex Jones, "deep state" conspiracies and arguments over whether a recent President was a "real American" or even a "real Christian", the Masquerade could not be safer.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 22, 2018, 08:47:27 AM
No, the rise of smartphones and CCTV should not provide much of an impediment to the Masquerade. Why? Simple - because people are putting less and less faith in what they hear and see.

Here are two short phrases which justify this opinion: "Hollywood" and "fake news". For the first, remember that, in the game itself, pawn store owner Trip sees even a Nosferatur face-to-face and he just puts it down to a cool makeup job; why should the general public behave any differently? Don't they see much weirder, scarier and horrible stuff all the time in their popular media?

As for the second term, we are seeing how the North American culture seems to be growing more and more disenchanted, disconnected and disbelieving of the news media in whatever they report, especially if what they report (no matter what kind of proof they may have) goes against our personal beliefs. When people turn to evangelists or politicians to decide whether or not science is accurate, there's a major problem. In a world of Alex Jones, "deep state" conspiracies and arguments over whether a recent President was a "real American" or even a "real Christian", the Masquerade could not be safer.

Again, the same postulates and values are not the same for all nationalities... where one nation is easily susceptible to religious changes, the other falls maybe far more easily into an economic crisis - generalization is the arch-enemy of any given regime if it wants to preserve its power it should seek various ways to maintain a notion of sensibility and balance in the sea of volatile radicalism and stupefying liberalism.

As for the Trip theory, I don't live in North America and if I would see a Nossie, I would reach for a 12-gauge and try to put up a fight. It is not because I know about the nosferatu or WoD, but because I am not interested in the world that from my point of view is another planet - I couldn't care less for what happens on the Hollywood catwalk and what are the newest changes on Wallstreet, latest celebrity selfies or whatever. It is a matter of priorities and outlook on life.

I always advocated the importance of one's environment and circumstances in which one grows up and matures. A youth in an economically stable and safe country that never felt the burden of war and sanctions on its soil is inherently more prone to be unrealistic in his expectations from the world (I am not saying that all are, but there is a probability) than the one that grew up in a war-ravaged country with huge unemployment rates where your number one priority is to find a remotely decent job and survive. The latter would find the existence of kindred far more easily since his view is more realistic and whole lot harder to manipulate by the social networks.

For user Aurelian: unfortunately yes, the radical voices are usually the strongest but they lack reason to see wrongs of their policies and stay aloof of any requests/demands to mend their ways. Such dissonant voices, should they remain unchecked for a long period of time, can seed hatred and madness within peoples, cultures, societies and in every other aspect of one's life throughout several generations. That is why I am an enemy of every radical movement in any given sphere... simply because of their conveyor belt logic and default blindness.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 23, 2018, 02:38:59 PM
Again, the same postulates and values are not the same for all nationalities... where one nation is easily susceptible to religious changes, the other falls maybe far more easily into an economic crisis - generalization is the arch-enemy of any given regime if it wants to preserve its power it should seek various ways to maintain a notion of sensibility and balance in the sea of volatile radicalism and stupefying liberalism.

As for the Trip theory, I don't live in North America and if I would see a Nossie, I would reach for a 12-gauge and try to put up a fight. It is not because I know about the nosferatu or WoD, but because I am not interested in the world that from my point of view is another planet - I couldn't care less for what happens on the Hollywood catwalk and what are the newest changes on Wallstreet, latest celebrity selfies or whatever. It is a matter of priorities and outlook on life.

I always advocated the importance of one's environment and circumstances in which one grows up and matures. A youth in an economically stable and safe country that never felt the burden of war and sanctions on its soil is inherently more prone to be unrealistic in his expectations from the world (I am not saying that all are, but there is a probability) than the one that grew up in a war-ravaged country with huge unemployment rates where your number one priority is to find a remotely decent job and survive. The latter would find the existence of kindred far more easily since his view is more realistic and whole lot harder to manipulate by the social networks.

Perhaps you are familiar with the book The End of History and the Last Man by Francis Fukuyama? The book makes a case that with the fall of Soviet Union, liberal democracy has triumphed over all other ideologies and now it is merely a question of time before entire world embraces liberal democracy. In other words, liberal democracy represents the endpoint of human cultural and political evolution. To me, as a Croat, such a book illustrates something many thinkers outside North America and Western Europe pointed out, a profound naivety which has enraptured the souls of people living in the West. Of course, it is understandable why such narrative became so popular in the West, for they experienced neither war on their own soil or any profound suffering since the end of WW2. War and suffering in general, tend to foster deep cynicism and skepticism.

You and I, however, know that history never ends. The conflict for land and resources is eternal, for it is created not out of human ideologies or religions but by physical laws that dictate that we live on a finite planet with finite resources.

Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 23, 2018, 07:29:51 PM
I have heard of the book, read an excerpt from it during the course of my studies - I need to analyze it in greater detail now that I have a bit more time. Thanks for reminding me.

Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 23, 2018, 11:08:12 PM
Mankind has bigger problems than competition between political systems and ideologies since no system will function well under current conditions. There are way more humans than resources which will, without a doubt, result in any system being corrupted in the favor of minority as it's impossible to sustain a decent living standards without harming competitors and keeping them from climbing higher.
Conversely, any reasonable system would work with sufficient resources as a result of nonzero-sum games being more advantageous in that case. Therefore, mankind should begin to control its population and gradually reduce it over the few generations for the first and foremost.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 23, 2018, 11:51:06 PM
I have heard of the book, read an excerpt from it during the course of my studies - I need to analyze it in greater detail now that I have a bit more time. Thanks for reminding me.

I would also recommend the Clash of Civilizations by Samuel P. Huntington and The Coming Anarchy by Robert D. Kaplan. These three books form the Great Three geopolitical predictions, which are studied and analyzed by geopolitical communities across the planet, not just in the West. Thus far, it appears that F. Fukuyama is profoundly mistaken and he has admitted that to a certain degree. The future will most likely be a blend between the vision of Kaplan and the vision of Huntington.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 24, 2018, 11:20:58 AM
Mankind has bigger problems than competition between political systems and ideologies since no system will function well under current conditions. There are way more humans than resources which will, without a doubt, result in any system being corrupted in the favor of minority as it's impossible to sustain a decent living standards without harming competitors and keeping them from climbing higher.
Conversely, any reasonable system would work with sufficient resources as a result of nonzero-sum games being more advantageous in that case. Therefore, mankind should begin to control its population and gradually reduce it over the few generations for the first and foremost.

Depends how you look at it, since the political systems and ideologies are precisely the ones that regulate the behavior of a civilization, they provide the latter with "lenses" through which the civilization as a whole looks at new things, influences and alterations. They regulate birth rates, legal and judical matters, social questions and economy - a right political system and an ideology to follow it could attain the necessary power to mend the burning questions.
However, you make a good point with the statement that there is no adequate political system for the situation now, though that issue is open for debate: some kind of individualism would do, but what kind, I am not an expert to answer that question. One thing that I am sure of is that it should maintain balance between the overwhelming freedoms of the West and the stifling regulations of the East. We can discuss this issue perhaps.

Also, in my opinion, the biggest and the most pressing matter of the world in my opinion is inequality between the countries in the world. There are people who believe in the West that there are no countries in Europe that have monthly wages between 300 and 400 EUR (sometimes below), yet I am living in one where it is the sad reality. However, that is all the consequence of general human history: there will be always those that live on the misery of others, so there is no panacea for this disease.

For user Aurelian: I have read the clash of civilizations, but the latter book is unknown to me. I shall read on, thanks.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 24, 2018, 03:34:37 PM
It seems that you're giving too much credit to them, they represent different styles and flavors of solving tasks that exist even in the absense of civilization itself, not the means themselves.
Inequality between countries has the same reasons that inequality inside a country: utilizing others, keeping their numbers high and profile low is more viable strategy than using own resources, which, in turn, makes the latter even less viable, and so on... It's a spontaneous golden milliard in reverse. In times past, global scale wars served both as a population control pill and the reset mechanism for a corrupted chessboard. In this day, the war itself is corrupted, serving as an another mean of keeping the status quo.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 24, 2018, 04:36:48 PM
It seems that you're giving too much credit to them, they represent different styles and flavors of solving tasks that exist even in the absense of civilization itself, not the means themselves.
Inequality between countries has the same reasons that inequality inside a country: utilizing others, keeping their numbers high and profile low is more viable strategy than using own resources, which, in turn, makes the latter even less viable, and so on... It's a spontaneous golden milliard in reverse. In times past, global scale wars served both as a population control pill and the reset mechanism for a corrupted chessboard. In this day, the war itself is corrupted, serving as an another mean of keeping the status quo.

My life experience up to this point has shown me that humans need a certain vision, hierarchy or system to see and/or understand certain things, even to change or to eliminate them. Ideologies should serve that single purpose alone - to form a prism through which a healthy society could act upon matters, not to solve them spontaneously and with large amount of collateral damage.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 24, 2018, 08:10:55 PM
Sure, but this won't happen for the reason that current world model needs badly its human fuel. Unless, of course, people would take the matter in their own hands and start to act with more responsibility towards next generations so better ideologies and, ultimately, a better system could arise.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on July 24, 2018, 08:18:24 PM
Sure, but this won't happen for the reason that current world model needs badly its human fuel. Unless, of course, people would take the matter in their own hands and start to act more responsibly towards next generations so better system could arise.

That will never happen, since the old are hellbent on maintaining a system that shall keep them in power. Most of my opinions here had been my outlook on the world order the way it should be, but alas, this world had become a real world of darkness where much of human sensibility and compassion had evaporated.
Frankly, I am tired and have lost hope in humanity - too many gruesome things have happened in the world, common sense, compassion and especially moral are practically non-existent, making me believe that universes such as Shadowrun or Deus Ex are upon us with their corrupt systems and rotten capitalism.   
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on July 24, 2018, 08:40:52 PM
I would be more vary of an average Jane or Joe acquiring a family for no other reason than a desire to feel all warm and fuzzy and important. Bigwigs could be, at least, understood, but that's worse than Torries' shtick from rulebooks.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on July 26, 2018, 12:00:51 AM
That will never happen, since the old are hellbent on maintaining a system that shall keep them in power. Most of my opinions here had been my outlook on the world order the way it should be, but alas, this world had become a real world of darkness where much of human sensibility and compassion had evaporated.
Frankly, I am tired and have lost hope in humanity - too many gruesome things have happened in the world, common sense, compassion and especially moral are practically non-existent, making me believe that universes such as Shadowrun or Deus Ex are upon us with their corrupt systems and rotten capitalism.

The world is now, as it always was.   

The debate about ideologies is fundamentally meaningless in the incoming climate change that will destroy human civilization as we know it today. The rampant consumerist hedonism that is masquerading as individualism is long term unsustainable and will have apocalyptic consequences for our planet.  It matters not whether we worship at the altar of capitalism, socialism, communism or any other -ism. All those systems are built upon a idea of perpetual growth. People wanted the goodies in the America and the Soviet Union. We live on a world with a finite amount of resources.

Our civilization is doomed. And that is alright: because our civilization is wrong. It is unsustainable by design. If anything survives, it will be another civilization.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Rubinia on August 06, 2018, 03:12:35 PM
I guess vampires could keep in hiding forever. Presicely, as long as they have Ventrues and Torreadores. With Domination and Presence charms people shall willingly forget and delete everything, all compromising data.

Personally I'd think I watch a special-effects improved clip rather than I see an evidence of supernatural activity, or I'd been forced into such belief with each and every action movie on the TV.

Apart from the fact the Masquarade concept is quirck and weird. Vampires with such powers would have already ruled the world. The best prove they don't exist.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Wesp5 on August 06, 2018, 04:30:22 PM
I guess vampires could keep in hiding forever. Presicely, as long as they have Ventrues and Torreadores. With Domination and Presence charms people shall willingly forget and delete everything, all compromising data.

And don't forget the Nosferatu who can manipulate anything in computers...
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Barabbah on August 09, 2018, 05:43:17 AM
Nah, they would be too much worried about their selfies and duckfaces. Problem solved.
Quote
Fuckin' Humans
- Oderus Urungus
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Signothorn on August 09, 2018, 03:40:38 PM
I think vampires could also become slaves to the tech giants. They'll be kind of forced to become cypherpunks in many ways. With facial recognition tracking your every move in public, combined with phones being tracked by mac address, and it being nearly impossible to avoid Amazon, FB, Google ect from tracking all your activities via their various api calls, they'll be forced to not have much of an un-life, or do something socially drastic in the other direction. Otherwise there will soon be a specific profile on vampires like the rest of us, and an algorithm could be used by law enforcement and Society of Leopold to determine who may be vamps in their area based on habits and purchases.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Barabbah on August 09, 2018, 06:25:09 PM
I think vampires could also become slaves to the tech giants. They'll be kind of forced to become cypherpunks in many ways. With facial recognition tracking your every move in public, combined with phones being tracked by mac address, and it being nearly impossible to avoid Amazon, FB, Google ect from tracking all your activities via their various api calls, they'll be forced to not have much of an un-life, or do something socially drastic in the other direction. Otherwise there will soon be a specific profile on vampires like the rest of us, and an algorithm could be used by law enforcement and Society of Leopold to determine who may be vamps in their area based on habits and purchases.

vampires should already be working with the ones managing profiles and algoriths
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Signothorn on August 10, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
I think vampires could also become slaves to the tech giants. They'll be kind of forced to become cypherpunks in many ways. With facial recognition tracking your every move in public, combined with phones being tracked by mac address, and it being nearly impossible to avoid Amazon, FB, Google ect from tracking all your activities via their various api calls, they'll be forced to not have much of an un-life, or do something socially drastic in the other direction. Otherwise there will soon be a specific profile on vampires like the rest of us, and an algorithm could be used by law enforcement and Society of Leopold to determine who may be vamps in their area based on habits and purchases.

vampires should already be working with the ones managing profiles and algoriths

How much influence would they have in the companies? Purely hypothetical that vampires could magically gain influence in companies, convincing the boards that it's in their best interest to forego potential income to reward shareholders in order to protect a select group of people. That takes extra work, rather than allowing the algorithms to function, and there would be reports to any amendments to it, so alterations couldn't be hidden. There are many such factors, and I think it would be an interesting quest to gain influence, but to assume the influence is already there for the sake of convenience is kind of lazy from a storytelling perspective imo. Those partnerships and relationships would need to be earned and maintained.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on August 11, 2018, 07:33:13 AM
They aren't normal sites. Such a resource is an enormous worldwide distributed network pandemonium that requires an appropriately abundant staff to operate. One could not ensure their loyalty, so they have a number of different lobbies spanning from goverment agencies to different companies. In WoD setting, such a situation will result in extra cainite lobby.
Ad tracking is easily avoidable, delete cookies after each search, use the browser that does not share an unique information, change IP if feeling extra paranoid, done. The most of these tech is actually cainite-friendly and shall be used against mortals, not vice versa.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Signothorn on August 11, 2018, 08:34:43 AM
They aren't normal sites. Such a resource is an enormous worldwide distributed network pandemonium that requires an appropriately abundant staff to operate. One could not ensure their loyalty, so they have a number of different lobbies spanning from goverment agencies to different companies. In WoD setting, such a situation will result in extra cainite lobby.
Ad tracking is easily avoidable, delete cookies after each search, use the browser that does not share an unique information, change IP if feeling extra paranoid, done. The most of these tech is actually cainite-friendly and shall be used against mortals, not vice versa.

Somewhat, and it will vary by the country you're in. In the U.S., you're constantly being tracked if you have a phone. Whether it's anonymous data that could be tied to you, or knowing where your phone pings to build a profile where you shop, where you were when crimes were committed, that you go to the laundromat every tuesday and stop at Starbucks while the dryer is running ect. There was even a story last week how Facebook is wanting banks to share your transaction history with them to build stronger profiles. It's unavoidable. Deleting cookies only deletes the tracking on your end, our ISP's keep your web browsing history for several years by law, and a VPN doesn't solve that. The service providers like fb, amazon ect don't delete that data either. You'd have to be a very paranoid vampire who is constantly looking over your shoulder, unable to live a somewhat normal unlife in a higher position of power, because there are so many tools to scrutinize your current and past behaviors. So like you said, it would be a constant lobbying effort, but it's one that would be difficult to manage. It would be an ongoing ordeal, based on the reasons from my previous post.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Barabbah on August 11, 2018, 09:59:46 AM
I think vampires could also become slaves to the tech giants. They'll be kind of forced to become cypherpunks in many ways. With facial recognition tracking your every move in public, combined with phones being tracked by mac address, and it being nearly impossible to avoid Amazon, FB, Google ect from tracking all your activities via their various api calls, they'll be forced to not have much of an un-life, or do something socially drastic in the other direction. Otherwise there will soon be a specific profile on vampires like the rest of us, and an algorithm could be used by law enforcement and Society of Leopold to determine who may be vamps in their area based on habits and purchases.

vampires should already be working with the ones managing profiles and algoriths

How much influence would they have in the companies? Purely hypothetical that vampires could magically gain influence in companies, convincing the boards that it's in their best interest to forego potential income to reward shareholders in order to protect a select group of people. That takes extra work, rather than allowing the algorithms to function, and there would be reports to any amendments to it, so alterations couldn't be hidden. There are many such factors, and I think it would be an interesting quest to gain influence, but to assume the influence is already there for the sake of convenience is kind of lazy from a storytelling perspective imo. Those partnerships and relationships would need to be earned and maintained.

Isn't this game supposed to be of vampires manipulating humanity in the shadows?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on August 11, 2018, 10:02:13 AM
Deleting cookies only deletes the tracking on your end, our ISP's keep your web browsing history for several years by law, and a VPN doesn't solve that.
Indeed, but that wasn't the point. Deleting cookies will reset UID which the browsing history is tied to. Subsequent search queries would be associated with a different user. As an example, Google UID = cookie + browser ID + IP.
As for ISP, while encrypted connections (like https) are untampered, they are free to store the white noise as long as they like.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on August 11, 2018, 03:38:35 PM
I knew that Apple had been held by the Ventrue... it all comes together now... :D
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Signothorn on August 11, 2018, 07:33:33 PM



Isn't this game supposed to be of vampires manipulating humanity in the shadows?

Yes, and I'd assume this to be the case in some part, but not as easy as saying they automatically influence as a means of convenience. It just seems lazy, that's my point. I prefer vamps trying their best to avoid the radar, while other vamps try to gain influence to make that easier. I believe both are happening simultaneously and it's not as straight forward as assuming the influence is already there, it needs to be earned and maintained. I find that to be much more interesting.

Deleting cookies only deletes the tracking on your end, our ISP's keep your web browsing history for several years by law, and a VPN doesn't solve that.
Indeed, but that wasn't the point. Deleting cookies will reset UID which the browsing history is tied to. Subsequent search queries would be associated with a different user. As an example, Google UID = cookie + browser ID + IP.
As for ISP, while encrypted connections (like https) are untampered, they are free to store the white noise as long as they like.

You're right, it isn't entirely the point. There are means like deep packet inspection and NSA databases based on mac addresses ect, but that's not the point I'm attempting to make either. I'm just pointing out technically vampires would have more of a cypherpunk attitude or strategy rather, to protect the masquerade more than in the past. I think they'd be into crypto, TOR and any means they can think of to stay off big data's radar entirely. I think Nosferatu in particular would have crypto mining botnets of millions of "smart devices" and server farms ect. Then on the other end, vampires are trying to fight big data tech from within. I think it's an interesting dynamic with checks and balances. It's more than just cell phone cameras these days that can track and document locations and behaviors, and assuming influence to stop vamps from getting detected is always there is not practical and kinda boring imo. I hope I articulated that well, I'm not saying you're wrong.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on August 19, 2018, 06:11:07 PM
And Ventrue would gamble on cryptocurrencies, own companies that develop mining hardware and sell drugs over darknet marketplaces (screw you, damn snakes), something in that vein. I think I understood what are you aiming at.
My point was that most of internet security techiques does not require a hacker's knowledge, I think 2-3 points in modern Computers (advanced user) will be enough in order to use the most.

Upd: or cainites' influence over major IT corporations, like Lasombra ruling Sun Microsystems, since without sun there are no shadows, while unscrupulous bussinessmans Ventrue would certainly put their hands into Oracle.
Not just kidding about Sun (R.I.P.), they were so uncompromising about quality that I could imagine it was actually owned by Lasombra, I've learnt proper C from their opened Solaris code, and I would say it's legendary for a reason. They were the last international IT corporation who really cared what will they leave behind. In other words, benevolent, though this is a weird epithet, knightly or "lived up to their own standards" will be more appropriate.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aurelian on August 26, 2018, 12:06:45 AM
I knew that Apple had been held by the Ventrue... it all comes together now... :D

The true Jyhad would be manifested between various corporations that dominate our world, that is where the true battle would be fought.  A street melee is fundamentally meaningless in grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: FleshArtist on August 26, 2018, 08:50:12 AM
We must assume that few vampires, mostly neonates or Nosferatu are truly tech savvy. Elders and the like who are strongly connected to centuries past and lower levels of technology would be at very high risk in the current 2018 world, or further into the future. Even if the Elders in question held great power behind the scenes, owned numerous companies, had government contacts, it would only be a matter of time before the sophisticated surveillance systems of the time caught onto their proclivities. If for example, we had an Elder Ventrue who pulled the strings of Google from the shadows, it would only be a matter of time before one of his mortal servants in the workplace happened to collect some "sensitive data" on his activities, unless he had a solid understanding of the modern world's technology, and how to avoid surveillance. On that note, Elders who are more cunning might perhaps live in remote and well secured mansions with fully loyal mortal servants who do know how to work with the technology of the current world. Such Elders would no doubt survive for a very long time into the future.

The majority of Neonates, if they would be anything like most consumers in the U.S or globally are, would have some knowledge, but limited knowledge on how deep technological surveillance and data mining truly goes, and those who are reckless could be caught by the Society of Leopold or related organizations relatively quickly, for we have plenty of reasons to believe the Society of Leopold has members and leaders who are well versed with modern computing and technology. Although the current human society is even more distanced from mysticism and superstition than before, the Society of Leopold would have even more capability to strike at the vampires in the midst of the human population, they could for example, using connections within global militaries, acquire drones to simply drone strike a suspected vampire's Haven. As time continues, the Society of Leopold and related Hunter organizations will acquire even more advanced technologies, further putting younger vampires at extreme risk.

With all that said, the Schrek.net of Clan Nosferatu is a curious feature. Mitnick managed to crack it after great effort, but had no understanding of it, and was embraced shortly after anyhow, and we also know that the Nosferatu are incredibly tech savvy, and would have a very deep understanding of contemporary and future computing and software. The technology improves, but not necessarily the skill of mortal hackers with it, and the Nosferatu are likewise masters of surveillance, so any hacker deemed a potential threat to the Masquerade would be watched and dealt with swiftly if need be.

In a world where individual privacy is near totally compromised, the Nosferatu, the Ventrue, the Lasombra, and the Toreador would be the most likely clans to adapt and survive. The other clans and Bloodlines would likely be exposed and destroyed, and the four mentioned would be forced to go underground or even deeper within the shadows.

This all leads me to ponder another question; How would vampires fare even further into the future where the potential for Transhumanism to become the norm is real, and the capabilities of cyborgs or biologically enhanced mortals may even exceed the powers and potential of the Blood of Caine save for the power of the Antediluvians and Fourth Generation? In such a case, Vampirism may very well become redundant.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Wesp5 on August 26, 2018, 09:16:36 AM
As time continues, the Society of Leopold and related Hunter organizations will acquire even more advanced technologies, further putting younger vampires at extreme risk.

This is assuming these organisations go with the time and don't get stuck in the past themselves as religious organisations often are. At least Bach sounds backwards ;).

Quote
Gary managed to crack it after great effort, but had no understanding of it, and was embraced shortly after anyhow...

I think you mean Mitnick and this only proves how fast the Nosferatu caught up with him and took measures against it...

Quote
In such a case, Vampirism may very well become redundant.

Or maybe it could appear to be normal. Like "What enhancements are these, bro?" :)!
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: FleshArtist on August 26, 2018, 09:37:42 AM
As time continues, the Society of Leopold and related Hunter organizations will acquire even more advanced technologies, further putting younger vampires at extreme risk.

This is assuming these organisations go with the time and don't get stuck in the past themselves as religious organisations often are. At least Bach sounds backwards ;).

Quote
Gary managed to crack it after great effort, but had no understanding of it, and was embraced shortly after anyhow...

I think you mean Mitnick and this only proves how fast the Nosferatu caught up with him and took measures against it...

Quote
In such a case, Vampirism may very well become redundant.

Or maybe it could appear to be normal. Like "What enhancements are these, bro?" :)!
Bach was indeed very backwards, and the branch of the Society of Leopold shown in Bloodlines was more or less backwards in general, but then again there are other parts of the Inquisition/SoC who might prove more adaptive. Quite ironically, the Inquisition/SoC has occultists, scientists, and other researchers who work for it.

I did indeed mean Mitnick, my mistake.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aloysius on August 26, 2018, 10:12:24 AM
I think they would adapt just fine. Plenty of criminal activities, or should I say not profitable to their legal counterparts and therefore ill looked even by them,
(the legal counterparts), are still going on under the radar in the real world and there will always be.
As for vampires, I am not very familiar with wod lore but in Bloodlines I take for granted that authorities already know that supernatural exist, vampires included.
To me even sects like the Sabbat, despite what some of them may say or even believe, must have a full system of their own to deal with humans who might have enough
power to be taken seriously in making their existences known, or otherwise act seriously against them.

Internet spying sure grew more and more disturbing, but I never did anything that I cared enough about on internet and that potential snitches could find interesting anyway.
Why would vampires be any different? Life doesn't depend of internet yet. Well not for everyone that is.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on August 27, 2018, 08:18:07 AM
See no obstacles in elders using Tor or taking measures against their subordinates collecting data on them, guess prince Mithras either has extra 19 xp points to spare on Computers or Security or will earn them somehow. Ironically, it's easier for a Methuselah to adapt than an Ancilla, the former have used plenty of different flavors of an alien technology through their unlives, so they're beyond time in that respect.
It's not technologies they have a problem understanding, but modern mentality and spirit of the time. Or, rather, finding any reason to do so.

Upd. Just looked through his character sheet, he already has 4 pts in Driving and, guess what, 2 pts in Computers. More so, they aren't exactly walking anachronisms even officially.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on August 31, 2018, 09:00:58 PM
I'll like to express my concern over two issues, the first being what the Fleshartist has mentioned: transhumanism. If this is not a threat to vampires then I do not know what it is - given the weakness of the blood (I figured that it is inevitable) over time, the humans will surpass or outlast vampires. It is a simple mathematical equation and the truth that had been passed down through history: all powerful must fall. Every empire, mechanic, person had been bested or had been deposed by the new. The original quote came from the tale of the Heike and it goes like this:

“The sound of the Gion Shoja temple bells echoes the impermanence of all things; the color of the sala flowers reveals the truth that to flourish is to fall. The proud do not endure, like a passing dream on a night in spring; the mighty fall at last, to be no more than dust before the wind.”

The second issue is the rising militaristic rhetoric and movements that shall plunge the pendulum in humanity's favor - the human species are notorious for pushing back... with fire and guns. If anything, the human history is that of conflict, of those that are oppressed fighting back, sending their oppressors to the guillotine. I think that the kindred shall fare in the similar fashion.

When considering the mass media and the digital world, I see here that many claim that it is "inherently" a home-field for the kindred, even though it could turn out to be quite the opposite. Only a single HD video, released in the right time on the right channel by the right person, is more than enough to topple the vamps or at least to deal a serious blow. The means to do so are today more available than one hundred years ago, it is a rule of probability.

Also, the 5th edition has a load of SJW material in it... it has begun. There are certain taboos that are touched upon and allowed, voicing the loud deranged minority, but some are disallowed. What if I wanted to create a fascist vampire that cannot tolerate the leftist ideology's offspring?
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aloysius on August 31, 2018, 10:00:38 PM
If human evolution through mecanical or biological mean(I assume it's what you call transhumanism, it's quite a ugly word I think) would develop enough to be viable, why vampires woudn't develop their own artificial enhancements? They are flesh beings as well.

I don't know, it seem many theories assume that vampires would just wait to be overwhelmed by human progress when they control a large portion of this progress to begin with, and can as much exploit it to their advantages before most humans even hear of it. I don't buy the 'old kindreds can't adapt to the new', they obviously did it before or they woudn't have survived.
Well, I don't know, none of this transhumanism or internet and camera are everywhere right until your toilet are difficult to anticipate, and therefore they can be controled/countered/exploited. If anyone ask me.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on September 02, 2018, 08:15:49 AM
The entire lore of WoD has numerous examples of how vamps are stubborn to change - their bodies have entered a "time stasis" so there is practically no reason for their mind not to follow in those steps.  Like all monarchs and pseudo-monarchs they shall only enforce those that they deem advantageous to their rule, but to advocate them they need to understand them. How would a 200 year old vamp readily comprehend a biomechanic arms or some such enhancement? A neonate might be more inclined to adopt them, but the unstable mentality that they harbor might hinder them to do so, plus the strict hierarchy: do you think that a powerful elder would allow a fledgling to "chrome up", possibly replacing him? Selfishness governs the world of kindred and everything else is relative when compared to it.

Also, there is the biological question of how would dead bodies adjust to the metal enhancements and what effect would it have on the inner beast - I doubt that the beast would allow its host to chop one of his limbs off and replace it with a prosthesis.  Even if it allows it, there might be side-effects and/or impact on his disciplines and blood potency.

However you turn it, vamps are a product of an old age and they survive through scheming, schisms, dominance, but I would argue that adjusting is not one of those. The term might be loosely defined in the dictionary of kindred, since you have 300+ years old kindred who prefer with the years to outright remove any obstacles rather than adjusting... they might compromise but that would last only so much, until they acquire enough power to either subjugate or limit. Either way, I think that vamps are given too much credit: they are not infallible, perfect or without weaknesses and to embrace change is one of those flaws.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Aloysius on September 02, 2018, 01:08:19 PM
You might as well be right in wod lore where plenty of rules are made up for strict roleplay purposes when they contradict the most basic of survival's rules, at least from I can say from reading white wolf wiki for inspiration sometimes.

Anything that live have survival's instinct, and under necessity will do whatever it take, even overcoming strong lesser habits they can be stubborn about when real necessity isn't there to take over. Of course this is while speaking of a species, I am not saying that individually some might not be too stubborn to not see the necessity until it's too late.

For example Kindred with centuries behind weren't stop by their old ages to understand the danger of humans with technologies and adapted their behavior and sects to it. How did they do that if they are so rigid and unable to adapt? How did they even survive until 2000? They are obviously not all mighty and unfaillible since they need to hide, even the sabbat despite their speeches. But they are a intelligent species, they can learn, at least in Aloysius's lore where they aren't so rigid.

But you know, I could be wrong, only way to know who is right would be to put it to reality test. No vampires in reality though (right?). Only ordinary money and life's thiefs.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on September 03, 2018, 08:32:46 AM
Speaking of Elders and implants, my opinion that the most of them will think of them as of a new tool or weapon, so won't hesistate to add the latter into their arsenal, enhancing their bloodbound and dominated daywalking resources at very least, and would surely invest their impressive resources into vampire specific implants development, for themselves and loyal followers. Why bother trying and failing to keep children away if it's much easier to install something that they won't be able afford in a millennia?

Indeed, they aren't into adjusting, they will try to bring a new area under control in the most efficient way. Since putting the genie back into the bottle couldn't be considered optimal, effective or even viable, they will try topping anothers in the implants game in the first place.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on September 04, 2018, 08:19:23 AM
I do not deny that the kindred are a capable species, but their methods have grown to be far more reckless and public... many clans do not take enough time in "educating" their neonates to hide, be more subtle or less zealous, more often than not producing a heavy amount of collateral damage and loss of life.

I, personally, would not call kindred survivalists or manipulators, but more damage-control experts that inflict a lot of suffering themselves (their own existence is suffering for the kine) and every "oops" (according to the Camarilla rulebook) is resolved by murdering the humans or unsuspecting witnesses with little or no repercussions on the perpetrators. In Camarilla those kind of offences are punishable by death (so goes the party line), but I really doubt that every Cam dominion adheres to this or by now the vamps would be exterminated. I would like to have a statistic on this, but I doubt that they are printing out lists of executions.

I just wonder what are the kindred's long-term plans... are they really so sect relative, or they aim for world domination or perhaps extermination of humankind without which they would not exist.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on January 24, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Through my life, I have read many books on geopolitics but also books which explain the methodologies of subversion and effective propaganda. The society or the nation that is unified by language, culture, values, religion and ethnicity is far more harder to infiltrate and subvert from within.
It's a quite a necromancy, but I think that religion should be excluded from this list. Religion, by design, is open to interpretation, don't even get me started on ambiguous and often self-contradicting religious texts that could be read in any way that one pleases. Therefore, it's easily corruptible, the "divide and conquer" tactic in regards of religion was employed multiple times over the course of history. Religion always was the one of the most popular reasons to start a war or conflict.
In a society with a sole religion, a schism inside it will certainly pack quite a punch. On the other hand, in a multireligious society it does not play any role of importance, otherwise it would've fallen apart already, without any vampire influence. If such a society survived, it means it's tolerant towards different religions and branches, so setting up a divide would achieve nothing but just another branch of yet another religion.
For these reasons, I will prefer a society that united by anything but it.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on January 28, 2019, 05:43:54 PM
From my point of view, religion is but another power mechanism alongside economic development, politic dominance and wealth distribution system - a potential ticking bomb if not handled correctly.
 
I was never particularly fond of multi-religious environments, partly because of my personal conviction that in a single country there can be only one authority, one army and one religion in order for that country to function properly - inviting more opposing religions, ethnic groups that refuse assimilation or insist on special treatment, having an indecisive policy on foreign and domestic matters that hinges on preserving the right of a fraction of people at the cost of the majority's well-being is defacto inviting open warfare, bloody schism and cultural erosion only to mention a few. It has nothing to do with privileges or favoritism, but such an organized country will have true justice - equality before law.

Not to stray from the topic too much - I know that there are certainly deviations and exemptions, but such a rigid system is what I like about the Cam. Diablerie, siring without permission etc have a singular resolution most of the time - again, I know that sometimes there are differences, but such a clear-cut and black/white system is what I consider justice. Blind yet equal for all.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Porphyria on March 23, 2019, 04:26:13 PM
Nah I don't think the Masquerade would be doomed in the future.  i think it would be mostly Toreadors on social media and there is a lot they can do to normalize themselves anyway lol I think a lot of the rules would still be effective. Vampires aren't supposed to be out in public doing crazy shit. If someone did capture something on a smartphone and lived to upload it, everyone would think it was a hoax.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Malkav on March 24, 2019, 01:53:05 AM
Yup. You upload the "feeding Nossie" photo Gary wants for the poster quest and everybody says: good job with photochop...
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Barabbah on March 24, 2019, 03:56:51 AM
In fact I always thought a better alternative to destroying the David Hatter script: convince Isaac to produce it and make it a trash movie success so any human who tries to reveal the vampire existence will be laughed as a conspiracy nut who saw too much movies (plus he can also, obviously, cover up or dramatically emphasize some of the more delicate issues). Not to mention how I have wanted, since I've played the game from the first time, to make awareness campaigns about not abandoning thin bloods on the streets. "Don't leave the masquerade at risk! Adopt a thin blood today!"
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on March 24, 2019, 08:10:43 AM
Despite being dead, I do not consider kindred brainless. I doubt that many would ridicule themselves on social media and in the modern entertainment industry - if they do they would quickly fall out out of cohesion. It seems that it has been taken for granted that kindred can adapt perfectly into the world around them without any hiccups or errors, substituting hundreds of years of absence in mere minutes. I was always perplexed how can a vamp that slept for 200 hundred years or so adapt so quickly, within a week.
That is why time shall be the bane of kindred - here today gone tomorrow.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: deicide on March 24, 2019, 08:50:50 AM
convince Isaac to produce it and make it a trash movie success
Myself thought of a worthy Plan 9 spiritual successor, an ultimate high-budget homage to Ed Wood by one of the most successful Hollywood directors. After that, no one will take this theory seriously indeed.
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Raving_Neonate on April 02, 2019, 07:34:11 PM
convince Isaac to produce it and make it a trash movie success
Myself thought of a worthy Plan 9 spiritual successor, an ultimate high-budget homage to Ed Wood by one of the most successful Hollywood directors. After that, no one will take this theory seriously indeed.

Or maybe it will become a cult classic :D
Title: Re: Is the masquerade doomed in the future?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 08, 2019, 06:56:22 AM
No way the masquerade would be in danger these days. If anything the Nosferatu would gain massive prestige and importance due to their technical knowledge, the Camarilla princes would be bending over backwards trying to keep those guys happy.