collapse

Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?  (Read 1324 times)

Offline Barabbah

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
  • Reputation: 12
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2018, 07:43:53 AM »
.
The sarcophagus is a lie!

Offline The Dullahan

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Reputation: 0
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2018, 10:32:36 PM »
World of Darkness is not a particularly well-constructed universe. (...)

Well, that escalated quickly.

Offline IanW

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
  • Reputation: 22
  • Onyx Path Community Manager
    • Onyx Path Publishing
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2018, 01:25:59 AM »
World of Darkness is not a particularly well-constructed universe. It was not originally a very serious game, as shown by nonsensical clan names like Bruja (witch), Giovanni (John), Lasombra (the shadow), Toreador (bullfighter), etc,

The inexperience of young game developers in 1991, when good research was harder to come by, does not mean it was not intended to be a serious game.

Quote
Later editions tried to tighten things and obviously that did not work.

Obviously, considering it just turned 27 years old and is still being published...

Quote
Now the IP is on life support paid by kickstarter donations from an aging, shrinking fanbase.

Thank you for demonstrating you're unfamiliar with the industry.

None of the Vampire-related Kickstarter projects we've run -- with the possible exception of the Prince's Gambit card game -- have needed to be on Kickstarter. The Kickstarters have been to create deluxe editions of the book. While every KS we've done has been successful, if any of them had utterly failed, those books still would have been released, just not in a deluxe edition.

The Kickstarters do occasionally help us do stuff like add additional material to a book (as we did with Beckett's Jyhad Diary) or extra supplements (such as the Tome of Secrets and the Jumpstart for V20 Dark Ages), but the line as a whole is absolutely not on life support and doesn't depend on Kickstarter donations to continue.

Ian A. A. Watson
Onyx Path Community Manager
VTM portal - Tabletop primer

Offline deicide

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Reputation: -3
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2018, 03:18:59 AM »
World of Darkness is not a particularly well-constructed universe. It was not originally a very serious game, as shown by nonsensical clan names like Bruja (witch), Giovanni (John), Lasombra (the shadow), Toreador (bullfighter), etc,
As nonsensical as, say, real world surnames. These ones are more than alright, though, Toreador and Brujah in particular, should you do your homework on actual toreadors and the latter word extra meanings, which should have been easy in our era when basic information is readily available.
Lasombra name is more upfront, still appropriate for such a clan.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 03:28:45 AM by deicide »

Offline BoxCrayonTales

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Reputation: 0
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2018, 04:19:32 PM »
World of Darkness is not a particularly well-constructed universe. (...)

Well, that escalated quickly.
Most fictional universes are not well-constructed. Construction has to do with how the parts fit together. World of Darkness is hardly the worst offender in this regard.
 
Perhaps the biggest leap of logic, I think, is that the books expect me to believe that extremely niche concepts like mad oracles, Sicilian mobsters, and the Hasashin somehow mantain globe-spanning secret societies. I do not understand why that would even be necessary and feels very forced to me. I think they work better as obscure guilds in the corners of the world.

As a matter of fact, I could say a lot of things about how I disagree with Mark Rein•Hagen’s choices but that is for a different thread.

World of Darkness is not a particularly well-constructed universe. It was not originally a very serious game, as shown by nonsensical clan names like Bruja (witch), Giovanni (John), Lasombra (the shadow), Toreador (bullfighter), etc,

The inexperience of young game developers in 1991, when good research was harder to come by, does not mean it was not intended to be a serious game.
I did not get that impressions from teading fans waxing poetic about the good old days of katanas and trench coats. I think in many contexts that “seriousness” is arbitrary and overrated. In any case, I do not find that a compelling justification to avoid changing the names to something less strange sounding to Spanish and Italian speakers. Just imagine how strange it would sound to English speakers if the names were translated. The logic strikes me as unwarranted Americanist provincialism.

Quote
Quote
Later editions tried to tighten things and obviously that did not work.

Obviously, considering it just turned 27 years old and is still being published...
That point is unrelated to sales. The same material has been recopied across that time with attempts to “update” it for “modern” sensibilities treated with ridicule by fans. Later attempts to explain the idiosyncratic names have been stretching plausibility at best, with some of my favorites being that 1) the name “La Sombra” and their historical pirate tendencies is derived from a fictitious Persian phrase “Laza Omri Baras” meaning “river of darkness” and 2) the Minotaur of Crete is the namesake for the Toreador vampires.

I think it would have easier to call them shadow pirates and lady-killers, myself. Maybe find some fancy-sounding foreign language synonym like sombre (a Spanish wordplay on sombra and hombre meaning “shadow-man”, and the title of a book), dandy, lothario or tombeur.

Quote
Quote
Now the IP is on life support paid by kickstarter donations from an aging, shrinking fanbase.

Thank you for demonstrating you're unfamiliar with the industry.

None of the Vampire-related Kickstarter projects we've run -- with the possible exception of the Prince's Gambit card game -- have needed to be on Kickstarter. The Kickstarters have been to create deluxe editions of the book. While every KS we've done has been successful, if any of them had utterly failed, those books still would have been released, just not in a deluxe edition.

The Kickstarters do occasionally help us do stuff like add additional material to a book (as we did with Beckett's Jyhad Diary) or extra supplements (such as the Tome of Secrets and the Jumpstart for V20 Dark Ages), but the line as a whole is absolutely not on life support and doesn't depend on Kickstarter donations to continue.
Then I must have been mistaken.

World of Darkness is not a particularly well-constructed universe. It was not originally a very serious game, as shown by nonsensical clan names like Bruja (witch), Giovanni (John), Lasombra (the shadow), Toreador (bullfighter), etc,
As nonsensical as, say, real world surnames. These ones are more than alright, though, Toreador and Brujah in particular, should you do your homework on actual toreadors and the latter word extra meanings, which should have been easy in our era when basic information is readily available.
Lasombra name is more upfront, still appropriate for such a clan.
So you speak Spanish? Great! I did research them but could not find what you mean. The words do not have any extra meanings, whatever those meanings are supposed to be in this context. Furthermore, those are basic dictionary words which make no sense in the context World of Darkness uses them.

Lasombra is literally Theshadow, which just comes across as weird. It makes sense as the name of a personage or a syndicate if rendered correctly as La Sombra or The Shadow like the alias for Sauron and Morder in The Lord of the Rings, but not as what World of Darkness uses it for.

I would suggest using, just for example purposes, names like Brouhaha, Tombeur and Los Sombres. These sound loosely similar while having appropriate meanings.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 05:18:43 PM by Wesp5 »

Offline deicide

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Reputation: -3
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2018, 06:00:58 AM »
I mean that toreador is not a "bullfighter", he's a fragile, eternally young (or bishonen in modern slang) dancer, an artist who had put his life, which could end anytime on a crowd's whim or due to the slightest mistake, on the line. It wasn't just a profession, it was a lifestyle. To give an impression, a few famous historical toreadors preferred death on the arena to public humilation from the defeat. As a toreador tricks a bull into doing exactly the choreographic movements that he want, before delivering the final blow, a vampire plays the same dangerous game with mortals.
That is, a well-chosen metaphor for an artistic or bohemian lifestyle, more so for the clan of born manipulators.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 09:19:08 AM by deicide »

Offline Nanaloma

  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
  • Reputation: 545
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2018, 03:47:59 AM »
Quote
So you speak Spanish? Great! I did research them but could not find what you mean. The words do not have any extra meanings, whatever those meanings are supposed to be in this context. Furthermore, those are basic dictionary words which make no sense in the context World of Darkness uses them.

Lasombra is literally Theshadow, which just comes across as weird. It makes sense as the name of a personage or a syndicate if rendered correctly as La Sombra or The Shadow like the alias for Sauron and Morder in The Lord of the Rings, but not as what World of Darkness uses it for.

I would suggest using, just for example purposes, names like Brouhaha, Tombeur and Los Sombres. These sound loosely similar while having appropriate meanings.

Brouhaha sounds a lot like what I drank at Penn State University parties.   :cometome:
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 08:11:45 AM by Wesp5 »

Offline deicide

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Reputation: -3
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
Or maybe like something that usually happened next after getting drunk?

Offline The Dullahan

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Reputation: 0
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2018, 09:53:50 PM »
A little something that I think has gone unmentioned so far: "Giovanni", sans the extra "N", also means "young people" in Italian, as in "I giovani" = "young ones". I'd wager it's on purpose, since they're supposed to be the most recent clan to achieve the status.

Offline IanW

  • Methuselah
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
  • Reputation: 22
  • Onyx Path Community Manager
    • Onyx Path Publishing
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2018, 03:33:11 AM »
A little something that I think has gone unmentioned so far: "Giovanni", sans the extra "N", also means "young people" in Italian, as in "I giovani" = "young ones". I'd wager it's on purpose, since they're supposed to be the most recent clan to achieve the status.

We did that explicitly in V20 Dark Ages: the "Giovani" are described as a new bloodline of the Cappadocians.
Ian A. A. Watson
Onyx Path Community Manager
VTM portal - Tabletop primer

Offline BoxCrayonTales

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Reputation: 0
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2018, 03:11:27 PM »
I mean that toreador is not a "bullfighter", he's a fragile, eternally young (or bishonen in modern slang) dancer, an artist who had put his life, which could end anytime on a crowd's whim or due to the slightest mistake, on the line. It wasn't just a profession, it was a lifestyle. To give an impression, a few famous historical toreadors preferred death on the arena to public humilation from the defeat. As a toreador tricks a bull into doing exactly the choreographic movements that he want, before delivering the final blow, a vampire plays the same dangerous game with mortals.
That is, a well-chosen metaphor for an artistic or bohemian lifestyle, more so for the clan of born manipulators.
A clever analysis to be sure. I still think the bull-fighter imagery muddles it, since at least in English speaking communities those connotations are completely absent. Hence my suggestion to use terms that literally mean “lady-killer.”

Even Daeva, a la Requiem, makes slightly more sense since it refers to demons in some cultures and would make sense as an appellation for vampiric succubi/incubi.

In fact, I find it unbelievable that the clans/bloodlines always use the same names when realistically names would change due to changes in environment and language.

Brouhaha sounds a lot like what I drank at Penn State University parties.   :cometome:

It is French and refers to a disturbance, such as a riot or controversy. Quite appropriate for self-described iconoclasts.

A little something that I think has gone unmentioned so far: "Giovanni", sans the extra "N", also means "young people" in Italian, as in "I giovani" = "young ones". I'd wager it's on purpose, since they're supposed to be the most recent clan to achieve the status.

We did that explicitly in V20 Dark Ages: the "Giovani" are described as a new bloodline of the Cappadocians.
A clever etymology to be sure, but it still runs into the problem that it would most likely have been adapted to di Giovanni over the years.

In my opinion, (di?) San Giovanni makes slightly more sense if the mobster aspect is replaced with Church ties. I do not think the mobster aspect is particularly necessary to the concept. That said, I could easily a pair of feuding families, one of them nobility and the other mobsters, brought into conflict by the depredations of vampires.

I could go on but this is already far too long

Offline deicide

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Reputation: -3
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2018, 07:26:55 AM »
A clever analysis to be sure. I still think the bull-fighter imagery muddles it, since at least in English speaking communities those connotations are completely absent. Hence my suggestion to use terms that literally mean “lady-killer.”
Since when Ernest Hemingway was excluded from American school program? "An American who never read Hemingway" sounds like an insult, not to say unpatriotic. The classic toreador image is a long time part of English pop culture.

It seems that you're making up reasons to bash clan names. No need, if you're dislike them that much, there's a golden rule.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 07:44:24 AM by deicide »

Offline Raving_Neonate

  • Rave.Period.
  • Antediluvian
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
  • Reputation: 20
  • Raving somewhere....
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2018, 08:13:17 AM »
About Toreador... I prefer it over the Daeva... the latter's name must have some Indian origins and I personally find it lackluster. I personally do not like Requiem, especially since the original names of the clans (for the most part to be fair) have been thrown out of the window. I read the description of the Daeva and the nicknames of "succubi" and "incubbi" killed off a lot of old vibe - the Torries have been a clan of charismatic vamps to be sure, but their "activities" were never only about fornication and had a deeper agenda. And the vice part...

Also, one more thing... after the eradication of the Salubri, the Torries should have been presented as the most moderate/humane clan, but the insistence that everything and everyone must be dark is becoming irritating. God forbid lollipops.
Me: "I love lollipops!"
WoD ST: "We don't allow lollipops, because we are too dark!"

Offline deicide

  • Ancillus
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Reputation: -3
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2018, 09:50:41 AM »
Speaking of Salubri, personally homeruled away the Tremere propaganda part. Who in their right mind would give any credence to their wild judeomasonic horror stories, they're distrusted by everyone by canon. So, members of the new LSD generation are as rare as unicorns indeed, but quite welcome in Camarilla campaigns, which are easier to integrate a high humanity character into. Needless to say, the character still should have a good reason to tolerate warlocks around, if such are present.
Otherwise, an unlucky random Tremere will likely find out the meaning of "jediflipping" (a repurposed hippie slang word) upon meeting any self-respecting Salubri.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 10:17:33 AM by deicide »

Offline BoxCrayonTales

  • Fledgling
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Reputation: 0
Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2018, 12:15:10 PM »
A clever analysis to be sure. I still think the bull-fighter imagery muddles it, since at least in English speaking communities those connotations are completely absent. Hence my suggestion to use terms that literally mean “lady-killer.”
Since when Ernest Hemingway was excluded from American school program? "An American who never read Hemingway" sounds like an insult, not to say unpatriotic. The classic toreador image is a long time part of English pop culture.

It seems that you're making up reasons to bash clan names. No need, if you're dislike them that much, there's a golden rule.

I’m not bashing the names. I’m saying the names don’t make that much sense. There’s a difference. I study etymology and I world build. World of Darkness breaks my suspension of disbelief. I have the same problem with many settings.

If my politely stating why the names don’t make that much sense in context and suggesting logical alternatives is considered “bashing,” I wonder if you are blinded by nostalgia. I really dislike people who use nostalgia as an excuse to ignore and actively denigrate constructive criticism.

I left the gamer community before because I felt it was toxic. You aren’t making it look to me like things have changed.

 

* Game Files