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Offline page

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How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« on: October 01, 2018, 02:37:20 PM »
Always wondered about the numbers AND the structure of vampire society in Bloodlines.
During the game we talk to some 20-35 named vampires - including Cammies, Anarchs, the lone Sabbat voice of Andrei and Pisha (I'm not sure on the exact number at the moment). The Primogen seemingly consists of LaCroix, Gary, Strauss and Grout.

But what about the others?
Who else sits in the Primogen?
Should we assume that all the important players of L.A. vampire scene are present at the theatre cutscene? Or rather we just met a small share of the flock?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions and how you imagine this particular setting, how you fill the obvious gaps.



Offline The Shadow Man

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2018, 04:36:06 PM »
If you pay attention to the Cutscene with the Primogen, each Clan appears to have its own Primogen (Ventrue included, LaCroix is just the Prince). Gary, Strauss and Grout are the only named Primogen (all the others are represented by PC models).

There's at least as many as appear in the Courtroom at the beginning but obviously some are just seat fillers.

Patty says "Not many of you out tonight." suggesting there is more vampires than there are shown, that or just none are in Confession because of her.

Offline Malkav

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2018, 07:07:13 PM »
If you pay attention to the Cutscene with the Primogen, each Clan appears to have its own Primogen (Ventrue included, LaCroix is just the Prince). Gary, Strauss and Grout are the only named Primogen (all the others are represented by PC models).
Not quite. There are only 4 people shown in the cutscene, including Strauss and Gary. So it seems two clans are not represented. My guess is Brujah and Toreador.
Quote
There's at least as many as appear in the Courtroom at the beginning but obviously some are just seat fillers.
There must be more. I haven't seen the sweeper in the cutscene, and obviously Hollywood must have more than 4 Vampires, else Isaak wouldn't need an enforcer. Same goes for Downtown. Why would the prince need a sheriff if there were onla a hadfull of Camarilla vampires and three anarchs, four if you count Jack.
Okay, Santa Monica seems quite empty of vampires. Bertram says there are four, and that is with Jeannette and Therese counted as two. Maybe the seaside doesn't agree with bloodsuckers... :razz:
Quote
Patty says "Not many of you out tonight." suggesting there is more vampires than there are shown, that or just none are in Confession because of her.
I can't blame them  :taunt:
Co Author of Camarilla Edition Mod

Offline Wesp5

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2018, 07:30:51 PM »
There are only 4 people shown in the cutscene, including Strauss and Gary. So it seems two clans are not represented. My guess is Brujah and Toreador.

In the original game Toreador saw a Ventrue player and vice versa so I replaced this guy with Gary. Otherwise you are right, the others are missing.

Offline Gossamer

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 11:37:22 PM »
In the lore of the tabletop version that vtmb is based on the population ratio is 1 kindred per 100,000 people. This is due to the legitimate concerns about discovery. The population of la is 3.976 million, divide that by 100,000 and you get 39.76 rounded down to 39 since you can't have .76 of a "living" kindred. 

Offline tarulu

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2018, 12:17:48 AM »
in los angles by night i think there was about 300 vampires? there was a sabbat siege with 150 anarch vampires in it which less than half of them survived so i think around game time there must be at least 100 left.
now in game? i don't know but we must also count the east L.A hub while is not in the game there are more vampires there and i think in L.A by night the numbers are stated but anyway at least 5 vampires must be there.

Offline argikt

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2018, 06:45:03 AM »
1/100000 humans is the ratio thta a prince must respect.
Obviously sabbat suckers are not in this list... Ah... and the thin bloods!

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 08:12:42 AM »
I remember the 1:100k ratio from Masquerade first edition book. Or was it a second edition? Doesn't matter now. But I always thought of it as a raw estimate. I can imagine some areas with i.e. 1:50k density. Why? Well, it seems impossible that centuries old city of Boston has just 6-7 vampires, or as little as ~20 vampires in the entire Boston-Brookline-Newton-Brighton etc. area. I don't think the number of vampires is linear - 100k inhabitants in rural Georgia is completely different "target" than 100k in sprawling New York City or L.A. I imagine geometrical or exponential growth in big cities.

Bertram mentioned 4 vampires in Santa Monica, but I'm not sure that we should take it all literally, especially that he 100% knows about thin bloods issue... to my ears he was just ridiculing the idea of Princess of Santa Monica because such a title doesn't carry much weight  :smile:







Offline Wesp5

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2018, 08:40:35 AM »
in los angles by night i think there was about 300 vampires? there was a sabbat siege with 150 anarch vampires in it which less than half of them survived so i think around game time there must be at least 100 left.

I think in that case both the Sabbat and the Anarchs got a lot of help from outside LA who probably went home if still undead afterwards.

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 12:55:09 PM »
in los angles by night i think there was about 300 vampires? there was a sabbat siege with 150 anarch vampires in it which less than half of them survived so i think around game time there must be at least 100 left.

I think in that case both the Sabbat and the Anarchs got a lot of help from outside LA who probably went home if still undead afterwards.

I recall that VtM rulebooks made impression that Sabbat and Camarilla are waging Wars for numerous places in US, like Atlanta. I think the word "wars" was used many times. If that's the case, hundreds of vampires taking part in a siege woul make sense (even if some of them were just bombfood embraced a short while before).

This is a sensitive matter because making Kindred too numerous would complicate enforcing Masquerade even further and potentially lacks realism.

Offline IanW

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2018, 08:10:17 PM »
The 1:100,000 is a global estimate, and isn't respected everywhere. A collection of a dozen small towns totalling 500,000 people won't necessarily have five vampires between them: those five vampires will probably be in the closest city. Vampires are inherently social creatures. As much as they might chafe at the politicking that comes inherent with vampire society, they also crave it.

And of course groups like the Sabbat care less than the Camarilla do about maintaining a safe herd, so while the Cam might have an unofficial rule of trying to maintain the ratio, the Sabbat will not.

So that's a long way of saying "as many vampires as the Storyteller thinks is appropriate."
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Offline Gossamer

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 10:23:34 PM »
1/100000 humans is the ratio thta a prince must respect.
Obviously sabbat suckers are not in this list... Ah... and the thin bloods!
My my you consider thin bloods to be kindred? I personally consider them to be more of ghouls than anything.

Offline Gossamer

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 10:27:21 PM »
I remember the 1:100k ratio from Masquerade first edition book. Or was it a second edition? Doesn't matter now. But I always thought of it as a raw estimate. I can imagine some areas with i.e. 1:50k density. Why? Well, it seems impossible that centuries old city of Boston has just 6-7 vampires, or as little as ~20 vampires in the entire Boston-Brookline-Newton-Brighton etc. area. I don't think the number of vampires is linear - 100k inhabitants in rural Georgia is completely different "target" than 100k in sprawling New York City or L.A. I imagine geometrical or exponential growth in big cities.

Bertram mentioned 4 vampires in Santa Monica, but I'm not sure that we should take it all literally, especially that he 100% knows about thin bloods issue... to my ears he was just ridiculing the idea of Princess of Santa Monica because such a title doesn't carry much weight  :smile:







It would be a raw estimate but still an estimate nevertheless.

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2018, 09:44:39 AM »
I listed named vampires out of boredom.

NameLocationClanAllegiance
Your SireSanta MonicaAllCamarilla
Sebastian LaCroixDowntownVentrueCamarilla
The SheriffDowntownNagloper?Camarilla
Smiling JackDowntownBrujahAnarch
Tourette VoermanSanta MonicaMalkavianAnarch/Camarilla
Bertram TungSanta MonicaNosferatuCamarilla
LilySanta MonicaThinblood-
ESanta MonicaThinblood-
RosaSanta MonicaThinblood-
JuliusSanta MonicaThinblood-
CopperSanta MonicaThinblood-
Rolf TotenSanta Monica??
BeckettSanta Monica/DowntownGangrelIndependent
Maximillian StraussDowntownTremereCamarilla
Jezebel LockeDowntownToreador?Brotherhood of 9
Brother KankerDowntownNosferatuBrotherhood of 9
Bishop VickDowntownToreadorBrotherhood of 9
Nines RodriguezDowntownBrujahAnarch
DamselDowntownBrujahAnarch
SkelterDowntownGangrel?Anarch
Kent Alan Ryan (*)Downtown/HollywoodToreador?
PishaDowntownNagarajaIndependent
Dr. Alistair Grout (*)HollywoodMalkavianCamarilla
"Sweeper"HollywoodBrujah?Anarch
Isaac AbramsHollywoodToreadorAnarch
Ash RiversHollywoodToreadorAnarch
Velvet VelourHollywoodToreadorAnarch
Andrei the TzimisceHollywoodTzimisceSabbat
Gary GoldenHollywoodNosferatuCamarilla
MitnickHollywoodNosferatuCamarilla
ImaliaHollywoodNosferatuCamarilla
Southland SlasherSanta MonicaGangrelIndependent
BarabusChinatownNosferatuCamarilla
Bruno GiovanniGiovanni MansionGiovanniIndependent
Cab DriverSanta Monica??

I didn't include other supernaturals, such as ghouls, hengeyokai or kuei-jin (Ming Xiao, Chang Brothers, The Cathayan), nor semi-canon characters (Lasombra from the Library is obligatory for me, but he was added in UP). I suspect there might be other vampires among characters we know, but it's pure fanfiction. Thus the list is highly subjective and not everyone would agree on adding Thinbloods.

I listed 35 characters, but there have to be many more out there. And I'm not even talking about far and inaccessible areas, but parts of L.A. we actually visit. LaCroix has at least dozen fledglings at his service, as evidenced in Venture tower. Strauss is a leader of Downtown L.A. chantry, so I'm 100% positive he has Tremere coteries at his disposal as well. Since those were not spotted in the theatre cutscene, one must conclude only a handful vampires decided to come there. The Shadow Man mentioned that Primogen members from other clans are represented by character models, so these are likely to have Kindred followers as well.

Since Sabbat and Independent vampires are underrepresented, at least when it comes to leaders (I doubt the Sabbat in L.A. is just Andrei plus his minions, it defies logic), I'm convinced the PC adventure is simply too brief (feels like couple of weeks) to meet all the players. We stumble upon Pisha accidentally, nobody in the community seems to know Southland Slasher, Kent Alan Ryan had his ghoul(s) but we only hear about him once. This leads me to a conclusion that Camarilla and Anarchs can easily have double the number, and Sabbat and Independent clans/bloodlines are impossible to estimate.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 06:48:20 AM by page »

Offline The Shadow Man

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Re: How many vampires dwell in L.A.?
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2018, 03:45:09 PM »
Yeah now that is mentioned there wasn't enough Primogen for all the Player Clans.

Speaking of the Giovanni Mansion, there is suggested to be a group of Elders talking in the room but only one can ever be seen.

As for the Thin Bloods, they are still technically vampires, just extremely weak almost human ones. In a way they are like ghouls but they are still vampires.

 

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