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Author Topic: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?  (Read 2648 times)

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2018, 04:51:42 PM »
Let's see, what is bad about so called Caine's blood curse and a bunch of antideluvians rising up millenias later to kill everyone... If you ask me this single resumate of this cheap plot explain itself but...

I agree. But this doesn't happen in Bloodlines, only in the Gehenna rule book and novel and as far as I know they will not be canon anymore once the new version is out. So maybe the Cabbie called Caine reconsidered after Bloodlines and cancelled Gehenna :)!

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God say that were he to curse anyone, he woudn't give them insane powers and eternal life with the ability to gift the 'curse' in the package. Then he added that he too find the idea of old invincible 'godlike' monsters very cheap as a plot device to end things.

The Cabbie in Bloodlines, if he is indeed Caine, does not have insane powers as hinted at in the rule books. Maybe he buffed up the fledgling's blood a bit, but that's about it. I can live with that and I prefer, probably as you do, that Gehenna never happened!

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2018, 12:46:22 AM »
becoming primogen is not that hard as far as i know but i don't have much information about bishops and archbishops however i think they are a lot harder than becoming primogens.
andrei Vicissitude is at least 5 so if you think you can reach that in just 50 years then you are right.

Assuming that Andrei is Bishop or Archbishop, assuming that Andrei is anyone at all. Sabbat is so poorly represented and Andrei is a shame all by himself. Who say that this crew is even Sabbat, except them? Considering Andrei's lack of intelligence, vision, leadership or anything outside of his Vicissitude really, why coudn't he invest all in his clan discipline? Our new kindred can max at least one discipline, and unlike most I am not seeing the player as any kind of exception stats wise , therefore what we can reach is also in reach of any kindred npc.
I am not speaking of any Andrei's in game stats, but of his dialogs and actions during the game telling me all I need to know about him. This guy is a shame.


I agree. But this doesn't happen in Bloodlines, only in the Gehenna rule book and novel and as far as I know they will not be canon anymore once the new version is out. So maybe the Cabbie called Caine reconsidered after Bloodlines and cancelled Gehenna :)!

The Cabbie in Bloodlines, if he is indeed Caine, does not have insane powers as hinted at in the rule books. Maybe he buffed up the fledgling's blood a bit, but that's about it. I can live with that and I prefer, probably as you do, that Gehenna never happened!

Why, yes that's it. You know what happened at the end of the so called final nights? Nothing. And the doomsday prophets just postponed to a later date where nothing will happen either, and so on. The apocalypse is probably for tomorrow since the middle-ages time in Kindred's legends, maybe even before, and what happen each time? Nothing.

I guess I am not opposed to millenias old vampires, whoever they are or believe they are, I am just opposed to them being godlike powerful and all mighty against other kindreds, and apocalypse's bringers like in one of these cheap vampires movies.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 09:52:29 AM by Wesp5 »

Offline tarulu

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2018, 01:08:04 AM »
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Assuming that Andrei is Bishop or Archbishop, assuming that Andrei is anyone at all. Sabbat is so poorly represented and Andrei is a shame all by himself. Who say that this crew is even Sabbat, except them? Considering Andrei's lack of intelligence, vision, leadership or anything outside of his Vicissitude really, why coudn't he invest all in his clan discipline? Our new kindred can max at least one discipline, and unlike most I am not seeing the player as any kind of exception stats wise , therefore what we can reach is also in reach of any kindred npc.
I am not speaking of any Andrei's in game stats, but of his dialogs and actions during the game telling me all I need to know about him. This guy is a shame.
and now you are saying they are not even sabbat! andrei wasn't that bad besides sabbat is not good in strategy just read midnight siege which explains war tactics of both sects.
then what is andrei? a Ductus? really?
he pointed his gun on Camarilla's information network was that a bad tactic? it was very clever.
and Vicissitude is not easy to master.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 10:02:28 AM by Wesp5 »

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2018, 01:37:27 AM »
Who is Andrei for me? Sorry I can't tell you that. And from Troika devs perspective, I doubt they considered very long on the subject of being true to Vicissitude levels development /mastery lore wise.
They made a tzimisce to create walking grotesques monsters at some point, then they probably considered it would be a better fight if he shapeshifted himself for his final boss fight.

Offline IanW

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2018, 07:54:34 AM »
The novel Gehenna: The Final Night came out mid-January 2004.

This appears in it, on page 191. There are a few other references, but this is the most explicit.

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“Jack,” Beckett finally interjected minutes later, “I don’t mean to interrupt your gardening, but--”

“Caine came to me, you know.”

Beckett blinked. “What?“

“Yeah. You were here, in town. I know you were. The whole bit with the coffin, that was fake. Hell, even after I spoke to Caine, I wasn’t really sure he was the real deal. Might not have been, I guess. But there was something about the guy, something important.” He glanced sidelong at Beckett. “Something similar about you, actually. You’ve been touched, if not by the Dark Father, then by something almost as ancient.”

Although the book came out in January, it's set after the events of Bloodlines.

So The Final Night wouldn't have been covering for a last-minute decision in Bloodlines, because it came out ten months earlier. Writing on the book began ever earlier than that, of course. As much as Bloodlines' development was cut short, Troika would have had ample time to do something about it in the year or more between the development of the book and the release of the game if it really wasn't supposed to be there.

It was intended to be part of Bloodlines from the beginning.
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Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2018, 02:07:23 PM »
Ok, I can't argue there, I didn't know this book came out before Bloodlines. But again, I am not interested in what wod say, I have never read any of their books and what they write or don't write change nothing for me. If pseudo Caine isn't a last second gameplay device, he is a elaborate easter egg to that book, there is no way I will integrate my version of Bloodlines into wod bad plot just because they say so in their own separate universe.

Offline Barabbah

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2018, 03:32:08 PM »
At first when I have realized he's (possibly) Caine I thought: why he focused his interest in one neonate vampire in one lousy town in one insignificant time? Then I thought: why god created light, earth, humanity and smiling jack? Boredom! Problem solved  :rofl:
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Offline deicide

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 06:31:42 PM »
Coincidentally, Caine is the only one who embraced without any agenda, out of sheer loneliness. As per the same classic myth, it's unknown who his direct descendants were nor their fate. So, only his embrace could be considered "pure" since it does not attach someone into the pyramid but creates a new system.
Due to these similarities, I consider Fledgling's embrace the one of such a reboot attempts by Caine. Probably, every single of them either ended up in a flipoff similar to the indie ending or merely started the vampire chess party all over again. Quite probably, some members of this "vampire lost generation" are still around, masquerading as normal cainites.
Protagonists' age at the moment were 20-30, consequently they belong to so-called "new lost generation", which makes an another interesting rhyme.

That could be the answer why there's no definite end to Vampire: there's no definite start. The superparasite idea, not dissimilar to H. R. Giger's Necronom or Alien, which Caine embodies, shall exist as long as mankind exploits itself. Vampire pyramid would reach its bottom, dissolving, and erode in time, but Caine himself (as a walking concept) cannot be destroyed or succumb to the beast, so he's always there to refresh it in any way if he wants to.
Sure, he could ultimately get fed up with his progeny and take his blood back never to share again, or start from zero. I think this is where Gehenna myth came from. Perhaps it was happened before and there are vampire civilizations completely erased from existence, though I doubt in Bloodlines, their Caine seems to be quite forgiving towards "sins" of his childer.

The above could have literal meaning or metaphorical, but I think I've unlocked the symbolism behind the Vampire myth.

Like, even if Caine and antediluvians never existed in Bloodlines universe, that myth just represents the concept of vampirism, and Cabbie is one of Jack's goons, for all practical purposes he could be considered a real embodiement of mythical Caine since he plays his role accurately. Which leads us to the question what's real and what is reality itself... Malkavian protagonist hints at the latter.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 10:53:16 AM by deicide »
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Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2018, 08:26:06 AM »
Cabbie is one of Jack's goons, for all practical purposes he could be considered a real embodiement of mythical Caine, since he accurately plays his role.

There is a theory that Cabbie is a Malkavian who actually believes he is Caine, and is mentioned in the rule books. IanW, can you help me out please?

Offline deicide

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2018, 10:49:50 AM »
Myself think that both biblical Cain and Caine from Vampire were provoked by what's called "passive aggression" in modern language (though I despise that BS psychology term) on Abel's part, so he wasn't a zero-sum game inventor nor started that chess party, but shaped it into its ultimate form by doing damage deliberately and openly.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 11:05:50 AM by deicide »
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Offline IanW

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2018, 07:03:09 PM »
There is a theory that Cabbie is a Malkavian who actually believes he is Caine, and is mentioned in the rule books. IanW, can you help me out please?

I keep hearing this brought up, but I'm not sure where it comes from. The only source I've heard for this is the aforementioned Gehenna: The Final Night novel, but the closest I can find in there is this passage:

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Beckett almost felt like crying. All the way to LA, and what did Smiling Jack turn out to be? A half-mad second-rate street preacher who'd hallucinated a Caine sighting and gathered just enough information to sound convincing.

That's quite clearly referring to Beckett's opinion of Jack, and not the cab driver. That novel is one of the last books released for Vampire until 2011, so it's pretty much the only place that a cabbie-as-Malkavian reference could exist, but there's nothing there that I've been able to pin down.
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Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2018, 08:55:42 PM »
I keep hearing this brought up, but I'm not sure where it comes from.

I'm not sure either. People claimed that he was an old friend of Jack, but that doesn't fit to the Cabbie's confession that he had just met him!

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That novel is one of the last books released for Vampire until 2011, so it's pretty much the only place that a cabbie-as-Malkavian reference could exist, but there's nothing there that I've been able to pin down.

That novel was bloody awful and I am happy it isn't canon anymore. The way they turned Jack into a peaceful pansy and killed him off was just ridiculous! So this theory is just anti-Caine fans imagining things then ;).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 08:58:09 PM by Wesp5 »

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2018, 03:01:24 PM »

I'm not sure either. People claimed that he was an old friend of Jack, but that doesn't fit to the Cabbie's confession that he had just met him!

What confession? The last driver only say that:
'I only recently made the acquaintance of Mister Jack. He intrigues me very much. There are so few like him these nights, I think. But then, I only know what I hear from others about the Kindred of this city.'

Whoever he is, he is posing as someone who has no angle, meaning that whatever he say can be a lie. Anybody can say things, even mystical things à la:
'Remember, wherever we go, it is the blood of Caine which makes our fate'

But you know, I have been thinking. All this time I thought that the Sarcophagus and pseudo Caine were Troika's original ideas. It turn out they weren't, and while overall the sarcophagus's scenario was made into a good plot, the last driver really feel like a forced useless device to wink at this irrelevant wod book. Now I really want to take him out, he feel even more like he shoudn't be there at all. Sorry about that, really I am normally not in the business of doing this kind of drastic replacement, let's just say I won't replace him with a other Jack's boy if I go through with it. Something much better in game hopefully.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2018, 07:16:35 PM »
Whoever he is, he is posing as someone who has no angle, meaning that whatever he say can be a lie.

But why would he lie to you? Also it doesn't really matter as IanW confirmed that this friend never existed.

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Now I really want to take him out, he feel even more like he shoudn't be there at all.

Now you are getting really stupid! The last cutscene with Jack shows that the Cabbie orchestrated the whole thing. And you want to take him out of the game? Why not remove the whole sarcophagus plot altogether and just have the player do small boring normal "Buffy" vampire stuff. I think you are missing what most people love about the whole WoD in the first place, the feeling that there are more and deepers myths behind it all!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 07:18:28 PM by Wesp5 »

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2018, 11:43:09 PM »

But why would he lie to you? Also it doesn't really matter as IanW confirmed that this friend never existed.

He never existed in wod, it's irrelevant to Bloodlines and even more to a Bloodlines mod.
Why does anyone lie? To make something look like something else. I said what he say can be a lie, not that he is lying for sure. Did I say that my view of the problem must be one interpretation? No, this character can be a lot of things, from a methuselah or even older kindred to the weakest puppet of someone not mentionned. Yes, he can even be Caine for you.

For you isn't the same that for everyone because 2+2 = 4 as in someone must be absolutely right and the other absolutely wrong. This character left in the vague is better, and that's why I prefer to remove it now rather than give him a clear identity like I was doing before.

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Now you are getting really stupid! The last cutscene with Jack shows that the Cabbie orchestrated the whole thing. And you want to take him out of the game? Why not remove the whole sarcophagus plot altogether and just have the player do small boring normal "Buffy" vampire stuff. I think you are missing what most people love about the whole WoD in the first place, the feeling that there are more and deepers myths behind it all!

I get that a lot. Probably why I don't see what you mean with Buffy, don't get the analogy if it's one, and that I am missing what most people love about wod.
This site help me to get my modding stuffs organised in a way, and sometimes I express my thoughts out loud so to speak.
I expressed my disliking to see Bloodlines reduced to a pure wod adaptation, including by trying to prove to everyone by 2+2 that the last driver has to be Caine and nobody else.

Why do you care to the point of getting rude about it, in all likelyness you would hate the role I was giving to the mysterious driver until now anyway, and I already did some changes to the main quest that you might not like as well. It's a mod, not a patch pretending to follow Troika foot steps.
If you think I would jump at you for any UP content or whatever mod you would want to make, you are wrong.