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Author Topic: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?  (Read 2582 times)

Offline Aloysius

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Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« on: September 07, 2018, 05:42:28 PM »
I don't want to derail the thread on Lacroix so I prefer to create one. To me Caine and the character wrongly associated with the mythological figure is one of these two possibilities:

1, One of these hoax or easter eggs that Troika implemented with just enough to make people doubt, or just for the fun of it.

2, It's a pure half fast gameplay design implemented to serve as a fast possible explanation of the rushed endgame when they realized Activision would never let them finish the game.

It could be a mix of both but I tend to option 2, personaly. Why can we take on the Sabbat, the Kuej-jin and Lacroix's minions all by ourself while everybody else is watching with a drink? That's easy, kids, it's all because of Caine who watch over us, and (insert theories here)...

No, sorry but no. I said it before I think but I will re-say it. Bloodlines isn't a lore faithful game, and thank you Troika for that, because the lore is full of incoherent gameplay devices, and a dubiously easy apocalyptic plot. It's a separate universe taking what it want from a source material, it's different.
If you take Bloodlines ennemies individually, they are only two of them that we can learn something about making them feel too easy: Lacroix and his sheriff.
What do we know about anyone else we get to fight? Nothing indicating they could wipe the floor with you or a other neonate. Litteraly almost everyone can be what Jack say at some point: A kindred with a week of seniority over you. Replace week by a year or a decade if you will.
That leave the end game sequences when you are completly outnumbered and shoudn't make it. Forced rushed development, there is nothing more to it. I started to remedy these incoherences in a mod but never finished it, but I will.

Going back to Caine's theories, whatever we see in-game feel more like a attempt to hold the player's hand whether we want it or not. Rosa's dialogs? Hello fourth wall breaking npc.
Malkavian's dialogs? It get annoying after a few times and the Dark father line was written only to create fuel for theories the devs didn't bother to think about like some do, if you ask me. The mysterious emails? No comment.

What can I say, it's my truth, and it seem I take it to heart. Feel free to contradict me, or not, with yours.

Offline DiamondBorne

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 06:14:09 PM »
Let's just say VTMB is a horribly unfinished game and leave it at that. Be it a good game or not is a different topic.

Caine/Cab driver is simply a nice easter egg and I'm not against it at all because he's completely irrelevant in terms of story.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2018, 07:09:47 PM »
I disagree. While it might be that Troika intended this as an easter egg, Rosa's dialogue alone is a hint that it was planned early on and wasn't done to explain the endgame. She is met very early in the game and I can't imagine some guy writing special lines for her in the finishing crunch time! Even Andrei comments on the strong blood of the player so I'm pretty much sure this is all intended. Also what motive should the Cabbie have to pull off the whole sarcophagus hoax? If he is Caine or maybe possessed by Caine everything makes sense as a test for the upcoming Gehenna. If he isn't, why would he cause chaos in L.A. and why would Jack help an unknown vampire? Last not least he has a special aura too!

Offline tarulu

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2018, 07:48:22 PM »
i agree with wesp here beside all of that there is one more thing.
troika made vtmb with the fact that people who play it are not aware of Wod lore so they almost explained evreything in game from sabbat to anarchs and myth of creations to end of times.
with that in mind whoever the cabbie is he can't be just a random person cause thats not how games work and surely thats not how bloodlines works so take this and you see its logical for cabbie to be a person that was at least mentioned in game,now lets say its not caine but who else is there?

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2018, 09:03:13 PM »
The last taxi driver, and note that I say the last, as in the other drivers from before aren't him, could be anyone from a friend of Jack owning him a favor to Lacroix's long lost big brother who was tormenting him as a kid, or the other way around. As it is he is a gameplay device driving the last taxi and presenting choices to the player like if we weren't there during the rest of the game to figure things out ourself. He add a bit of conversation at a stage full of fights, I give him that. His sire just fed him too much with the gehenna and Cain hoaxs.

Why can't you imagine a dev writting additional dialogs for Rosa, Wesp? I imagine it pretty well, in fact I can see it right now. What would Andrei know about the so called blood potency? The sucker actually believe there is a antideluvian in the sarcophagus, and everything about him and his sad bunch make me believe they all are rejects fledgelings left in LA because nobody care about them in their sect.

with that in mind whoever the cabbie is he can't be just a random person cause thats not how games work and surely thats not how bloodlines works so take this and you see its logical for cabbie to be a person that was at least mentioned in game,now lets say its not caine but who else is there?

Not every story give the full story, and sometimes it's for the best. In Bloodlines you know all you can know from your player perspective, it doesn't mean you have all the pieces, no more than any other character you can see or hear about. It's one of the thing I like about Bloodlines, there are no antideluvians, no gehenna, they are just myths and manipulation's tools, like they should be. But if you want to believe there are, well nothing is stopping you either. However cutting this freedom that I believe intended by Troika by trying to make wod's badest lore invading Bloodlines's separate universe doesn't stimulate creativity.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 09:05:05 PM by Aloysius »

Offline Raving_Neonate

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2018, 09:22:52 PM »
Well, there are many possible interpretations on the Caine subject in Bloodlines and even the cabbie himself alludes to his "true" identity in the epilogue when you ask him about the Cam:

"I thought that they could provide stability for our kind... maybe I could be convinced."

I know that the quote is not in its entirety, but if you dissect the sentence you can clearly see that he means under "I" in fact "Caine" and if you question him further on various subjects he will throw several intriguing observations on the kindred, sects and your choices even. This is perhaps an iffy theory, but the usage of language and the ideas he is putting forth lead you to confirm the equation cabbie=Caine. When he talks of autarkis, anarchs and other characters, he does so with great detail regarding the bigger picture and the entire idea of him testing the modern kindred is also not without its merits since the final nights are nigh at the conclusion of the game so his own travels through Los Angeles could have served for an ideal source of a sequel story or some such.

However, I prefer to think of the issue in Cortez's words from the Longest Journey:

"You see, seƱorita, mystery is important. To know everything, to know the whole truth, is dull. There is no magic in that. Magic is not knowing, magic is wondering about what and how and where."
Me: "I love lollipops!"
WoD ST: "We don't allow lollipops, because we are too dark!"

Offline tarulu

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 09:48:39 PM »
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The sucker actually believe there is a antideluvian in the sarcophagus
that is kinda a weird thing to say,you know it was possible right?

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Not every story give the full story, and sometimes it's for the best. In Bloodlines you know all you can know from your player perspective, it doesn't mean you have all the pieces, no more than any other character you can see or hear about. It's one of the thing I like about Bloodlines, there are no antideluvians, no gehenna, they are just myths and manipulation's tools, like they should be. But if you want to believe there are, well nothing is stopping you either. However cutting this freedom that I believe intended by Troika by trying to make wod's badest lore invading Bloodlines's separate universe doesn't stimulate creativity.
problem is i don't think troika would put some random person on game and try to show him as caine while you think otherwise


Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 10:03:49 PM »
He add a bit of conversation at a stage full of fights, I give him that.

In your opinion maybe, but as Raving_Neonate analysed correctly, this conversation also makes much more sense if he is Caine.

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Why can't you imagine a dev writting additional dialogs for Rosa, Wesp?

The writing is not the problem, but the voice acting. I guess it was recorded pretty early in the making of Bloodlines.

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What would Andrei know about the so called blood potency?

You would need to ask IanW about this. At least he talks like he knows much about blood and the smell of power...

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Not every story give the full story, and sometimes it's for the best.

I agree that Troika didn't make this a certain fact, but the hints pro this assumption are much more than against it.

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However cutting this freedom that I believe intended by Troika by trying to make wod's badest lore invading Bloodlines's separate universe doesn't stimulate creativity.

What do you mean by "badest lore"? I think the connection of Caine to vampires is great, only the way Gehenna happened in the novels and books was a complete mess! The latter seemed to have been removed by the upcoming new revision anyway which of course makes Caine being the Cabbie even more possible :)! Oh, and what about his special aura?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 10:05:56 PM by Wesp5 »

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2018, 02:25:33 AM »

In your opinion maybe, but as Raving_Neonate analysed correctly, this conversation also makes much more sense if he is Caine.

His conversation is a easy plot device to hold the player's hand. You can analyse it but I prefered to replace the entire sequence if other choices than vanilla are made. And if vanilla, well I didn't yet but short of removing it entirely, I might just make it entirely skippable, as a option, if anyone else than me is tired of this guy.

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The writing is not the problem, but the voice acting. I guess it was recorded pretty early in the making of Bloodlines.

You think Rosa's actress disapeared or was so overbooked she coudn't record a few more lines? Not that either coudn't be true.

that is kinda a weird thing to say,you know it was possible right?

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You would need to ask IanW about this. At least he talks like he knows much about blood and the smell of power...

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What do you mean by "badest lore"? I think the connection of Caine to vampires is great, only the way Gehenna happened in the novels and books was a complete mess! The latter seemed to have been removed by the upcoming new revision anyway which of course makes Caine being the Cabbie even more possible :)! Oh, and what about his special aura?

Of course not. There is no such things as Antideluvians and Caine. As myths they are ok, they don't need to be real and I will even say they ruin everything good if someone make them real. Anybody can believe what they want and do as much to their games, what I am disagreing about is to try to establish a Bloodlines 'canon' or make it part of wod lore at all cost.

Andrei always gave me the feeling he was posing as what he isn't, a relatively old and powerful kindred while I bet he is all the contrary, like most kindred in LA.
'Andrei was not a believer.' 'He was a sucker.'

What about the special aura? Is it different from any other kindred? I never cared enough to check but if so it's part of the Easter egg/hoax. And if the regular taxi drivers have a kindred aura it's either a mistake due to the shared model maybe, or other kindreds spying on you.

Offline tarulu

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2018, 02:55:02 AM »
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Of course not. There is no such things as Antideluvians and Caine. As myths they are ok, they don't need to be real and I will even say they ruin everything good if someone make them real. Anybody can believe what they want and do as much to their games, what I am disagreing about is to try to establish a Bloodlines 'canon' or make it part of wod lore at all cost.

Andrei always gave me the feeling he was posing as what he isn't, a relatively old and powerful kindred while I bet he is all the contrary, like most kindred in LA.
'Andrei was not a believer.' 'He was a sucker.'

okey hold down,you are an old vampire like i don't know maybe 300 or 400 years old?Andrei must be that old right? i mean at least he is 200 years old.
now old vampire are really not going well with tech and stuff and they are not going well with humans either now consider this old vampire living his mortal life in times of ignoress and superstitions and later among vampires that are really into superstitions and really hate mortals and avoid them unless they want to kill them of course
this vampire knows vampires are real cause well he is a vampire after all now he knows there are also generations cause he has one of them and he was also sired by a lower generation so that means there are also more "lower generations" so having Antideluvians is not so weird and if we have them we also must have some caine figure.
what i am trying to say here is you really can't blame him for sarcophagus thing.
seems many elders hardly can even dial a phone,now you in this age are not much into superstitions because of tech thing but an old vampire?thats different.

and whats the problem with bloodlines being wod lore?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 03:02:16 AM by tarulu »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2018, 09:08:38 AM »
You think Rosa's actress disapeared or was so overbooked she coudn't record a few more lines?

Indeed, because the only explanation I have for the bad dialogue Nines has when leaving Grout's mansion is that they couldn't get new lines.

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There is no such things as Antideluvians and Caine.

Oh, then you dismiss basically the whole background of the WoD vampires! Maybe you should make a Requiem based mod then...

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What about the special aura? Is it different from any other kindred?

Yes, he has an unique aura and also this last line: "Remember, wherever we go, it is the blood of Caine which makes our fate. Farewell, vampire."

Offline deicide

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2018, 10:16:31 AM »
Of course not. There is no such things as Antideluvians and Caine. As myths they are ok, they don't need to be real and I will even say they ruin everything good if someone make them real. Anybody can believe what they want and do as much to their games, what I am disagreing about is to try to establish a Bloodlines 'canon' or make it part of wod lore at all cost.
Or, rather, Camarilla wants everyone to believe so, denying their existense at all costs, and, apparently, their efforts weren't entirely wasted. Nevertheless, since when their official position had become reality, and why such an explanation wouldn't ruin everything good as well as the opposite?

Canonically, the existence of antediluvians was supposed to be the main Vampire mystery, and it's up to the players to decide and, possibly, find out which theory was true, if any.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 10:22:02 AM by deicide »
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Offline Wesp5

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2018, 02:08:23 PM »
Canonically, the existence of antediluvians was supposed to be the main Vampire mystery, and it's up to the players to decide and, possibly, find out which theory was true, if any.

Also even if the whole Caine and Antediluvians story is just a myth, the Cabbie would have to be a very old powerfull vampire playing all others that way! Maybe just named "Caine" ;).

Offline Aloysius

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2018, 03:44:11 PM »
Let's see, what is bad about so called Caine's blood curse and a bunch of antideluvians rising up millenias later to kill everyone... If you ask me this single resumate of this cheap plot explain itself but... Wait, I am hearing a voice, give me a minute...

What? Is that you, God? You say you are on my side? Oh boy, you are absolutely right, why, yes, God, I will tell them.
God say that were he to curse anyone, he woudn't give them insane powers and eternal life with the ability to gift the 'curse' in the package. Then he added that he too find the idea of old invincible 'godlike' monsters very cheap as a plot device to end things.
And that's why Bloodlines is better off as a separate universe where we can create and believe what we want rather than forcing it into a rigid wod lore 'continuity'.

Andrei, are you writing this down? This is profound. Speaking of Andrei:
okey hold down,you are an old vampire like i don't know maybe 300 or 400 years old?Andrei must be that old right? i mean at least he is 200 years old.

Who, Andrei? At best I give him 50 years, and that's when I am being generous, he could as well be 10 or 20 years old at most. Gary Golden is what, 60, 70, 80 years old and he is the Nosferatu primogen. Grout is similar. What does it say about LA vampires in general? Isaac talk down in a pure hollywood fashion because he was around in Bogart's time but if he is much older than that I will shave my head and wear a pink tutu.
Even a one year older kindred will call you 'kid', 'whelp' and so on just to talk down to someone like their elders do and pose.

My disdain for Caine and gehenna has nothing to do with the modern age beliefs or habits, it's a bad story written by people like you and me, not a god or a supernatural being close to the big guy. Humans have several non sense bibles written to control people, well vampires have their own and there is nothing more to it in my good book. Such beliefs predate the modern age, renaissance and middle ages by far.

So yes, my friends. I made my own lore version for Bloodlines, because I firmly believe that Troika wanted to provide this freedom and not just make a rigid adaptation.
A few years back I don't remember that it was 'important' to make Bloodlines 'rigid wod canon' and prove by maths that wanabe 'Caine' is the real deal. If it were intended that way, Troika would have make it clear in game, and I probably woudn't have stay with this game.

But as you can guess, I had a long chat with God and he understand.



Offline tarulu

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Re: Caine, the hoax or the last second gameplay design?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2018, 04:16:02 PM »
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Who, Andrei? At best I give him 50 years, and that's when I am being generous, he could as well be 10 or 20 years old at most. Gary Golden is what, 60, 70, 80 years old and he is the Nosferatu primogen. Grout is similar. What does it say about LA vampires in general? Isaac talk down in a pure hollywood fashion because he was around in Bogart's time but if he is much older than that I will shave my head and wear a pink tutu.
Even a one year older kindred will call you 'kid', 'whelp' and so on just to talk down to someone like their elders do and pose.
becoming primogen is not that hard as far as i know but i don't have much information about bishops and archbishops however i think they are a lot harder than becoming primogens.
andrei Vicissitude is at least 5 so if you think you can reach that in just 50 years then you are right.