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Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?  (Read 681 times)

Offline mentos046

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Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« on: October 31, 2017, 04:24:09 AM »
Please forgive my utter ignorance; I just found Bloodlines on Steam's Halloween Sale, so I've never played it before. This may have been answered already, given that the game is quite old by now, but when I attempted to search the forum for it, no answers were yielded.

I understand that many of the major mods are built atop the unofficial patch, but one thing that's still ambiguous to me is whether they include the content in the unofficial patch plus. In screening the game and mods before I decided to buy it, because I'm absurdly cheap, I discovered that there is a character named Heather, who dies at one point, and the unofficial patch has an option to prevent this. I was wondering if that option is available in Antitribu, and possibly the other major mods, as well. I'd like to prevent her death, but if it means missing the stuff the mods add, then I'll just throw her under the bus.

An unrelated question, assuming it won't get me fed to some terrifying undead nightmare: How did Antitribu (am I spelling that right?) get its name? What is an Antitribu?



Offline Wesp5

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2017, 08:37:02 AM »
I discovered that there is a character named Heather, who dies at one point, and the unofficial patch has an option to prevent this.

I know that the ATM is based on the UP, but I don't know if Lenuska included this option. You can check yourself though if you like. Open the ATM-folder/dlg/main characters/heather.dlg file with any text editor and search for "indoors".

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How did Antitribu (am I spelling that right?) get its name? What is an Antitribu?

IanW can probably explain that best, but as far as I know Antitribu are clans that are not associated with their typical sect. Like Sabbat or solo clans in the Camarilla which is what both the ATM and The Final Nights mod assumed to make new clans work within the story.

Offline mentos046

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2017, 11:45:02 AM »
I see. Thank you for the explanation. The Sabbat are not a clan in and of themselves, correct? Just a cobbled-together maybe organization of like-minded hyper-zealots?

What I assume to be the dialogue option does appear in the file, so it must be present. What all does the unofficial patch plus add? Also, you're the one who made the unofficial patch, aren't you? Thanks for your work on it.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 01:54:39 PM »
I see. Thank you for the explanation. The Sabbat are not a clan in and of themselves, correct? Just a cobbled-together maybe organization of like-minded hyper-zealots?

Yes. Like the opposite of the Camarilla!

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What I assume to be the dialogue option does appear in the file, so it must be present.

Is there still the condition of G.Patch_Plus and if yes, is this set in the mod somewhere?

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What all does the unofficial patch plus add? Also, you're the one who made the unofficial patch, aren't you?

Yes. To learn about the differences between plus and basic check out the list inside the patch readme...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 10:15:47 AM by Wesp5 »

Offline mentos046

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 11:53:17 PM »
By "set in the mod somewhere", I'm assuming you're asking if it is in heather.dlg. If that's not what you're asking, then I apologize; I'm still pretty new to this game and its mods. I used Ctrl+F to search for "G.Patch" in heather.dlg, in Notepad, and no results returned, so if that's where I was supposed to find it, assuming it was implemented in Antitribu, then it's not there.

Is it possible to extract the unofficial patch plus to somewhere that isn't the game directory, and take the "heather.dlg" file from there, and just drop it into the Antitribu dlg folder, or would that mess something up?

Offline IanW

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2017, 12:38:22 AM »
How did Antitribu (am I spelling that right?) get its name? What is an Antitribu?

Antitribu is literally "against (anti) the tribe (tribu)," or as it refers to the Kindred, against the clan.

As Wesp indicates, the antitribu are almost political divisions: if the leadership of a given clan has allied itself with a certain sect -- like, say, the Ventrue have allied with the Camarilla -- then any individual Ventrue who has decided to join the Sabbat is declared to be a "Ventrue antitribu."

It's not strictly a political division, though: just like if a mortal family were to split, one half might have a greater propensity to having kids with blonde hair, or whatever, often the antitribu versions of the regular clans will develop their own clan weaknesses or even their own Discipline spreads (although rarely unique Disciplines entirely: those are more the province of different bloodlines).

The term "antitribu" is most often associated with the Sabbat: the antitribu make up the bulk of the Sabbat's numbers, with most of the rest being filled out with the Lasombra and Tzimisce, the two Sabbat clans.

Here are the antitribu clans, as Kindred recon them:

  • Assamite antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Assamites, independent)
  • Brujah antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Brujah, Camarilla)
  • City Gangrel/Coyotes (Sabbat. Main clan: Gangrel, Camarilla)
  • Country Gangrel (Sabbat. Main clan: Gangrel, Camarilla)
  • Lasombra antitribu (Camarilla. Main clan: Lasombra, Sabbat)
  • Malkavian antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Malkavian, Camarilla)
  • Nosferatu antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Nosferatu, Camarilla)
  • Panders (Sabbat. Main "clan": Caitiff, n/a)
  • Ravnos antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Ravnos, Independent)
  • Salubri antitribu (Sabbat. Main bloodline: Salubri, Independent)
  • Serpents of the Light (Sabbat. Main clan: Followers of Set, Independent)
  • Toreador antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Toreador, Camarilla)
  • Tremere antitribu* (Sabbat. Main clan: Tremere, Camarilla)
  • Ventrue antitribu (Sabbat. Main clan: Ventrue, Camarilla)

*The main bulk of the Tremere antitribu, which had split from the main body of the Tremere, were wiped out c. 1999. Some "newer" Tremere antitribu have been making an appearance lately, which come from a much older offshoot of the Tremere called the Telyavelic Tremere, last known to be active in the Dark Ages, long before the formation of the Camarilla and Sabbat.

As you can see, not only are most Sabbat antitribu, but most antitribu are Sabbat.  It's just the way vampires think: An individual Assamite or Ravnos who joins the Camarilla is just a single rogue member of their clan, but joining the Sabbat is a statement, so they're declared antitribu.

The only non-Sabbat antitribu are the Lasombra antitribu, who have joined the Camarilla.
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Offline IanW

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 12:47:41 AM »
I see. Thank you for the explanation. The Sabbat are not a clan in and of themselves, correct? Just a cobbled-together maybe organization of like-minded hyper-zealots?

There are several Sects -- political organizations -- within Kindred society. The most prominent were formed in the 1400s, following the Inquisition: many vampires had been targeted and put to the flame, so the era of ruling openly was at an end. Elders often sacrificed their childer to the fires so that they could escape, which led to the younger vampires banding together against the elders in an act called the Anarch Rebellion.

- The Camarilla believed in hiding among humanity, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Officially they don't believe that Caine and the Antediluvian clan founders were anything but myths, and discount rumours of an upcoming Gehenna. Individual members may or may not follow the official line, however.

- The Sabbat are officially the modern remnants of the Anarch Rebellion, although their beliefs have changed dramatically: Caine and the Antediluvians are literally real, and Gehenna is coming unless we kill all the Antediluvians first. They're monsters and revel in it, and think the Camarilla are idiots for trying to maintain their humanity, even if it is to blend in with the herd better.

- The Anarch Movement is considered by some to be a sub-group of the Camarilla, a training ground for younger vampires to get out their anger before "growing up" and joining the Camarilla. The Anarchs obviously disagree. They don't like either the Cam or Sabbat, but are much more willing to tolerate the Cam due to their shared connection with humanity. The Sabbat are violent and crazy. Due to their rugged individuality, there's no real shared opinion on the Antediluvians and Gehenna, except a recognition of the deeper truth about vampires: elders will always try to screw over their childer.

There are a few other weirder sects, but they don't really come into play in Bloodlines much.
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Offline mentos046

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2017, 03:22:01 AM »
Wow. That's some pretty elaborate lore for a mod. A good deal of it escapes my comprehension though, since I haven't actually played any further than the Astrolite mission, yet.

This is a lot of information to take in at once, so let me try to summarize it, and please correct me if I'm wrong.
  • The main, non-clan divisions of vampire society are the Sabbat, the Camarilla, and, to a lesser degree, the Anarchs, who are believed by many to be part of the Camarilla and not yet accepting of that idea. Antitribu is not a faction itself, but rather a designation for those who don't side with the Camarilla.
  • The Anarch Rebellion was an uprising of the younger generation of vampires against the elders, circa the 1400s. The circumstances leading up to the rebellion reinforce the idea that Antediluvians are, in fact, elder vampires. The members of the rebellion wanted to eliminate the elders to avoid a fiery death, in line with the idea of Gehenna as a place where discarded things are burned. This evolved into a fanatical idea that the Antediluvians will one day attempt to burn all of the Kindred, and thus must be hunted down and wiped out to prevent this.
  • The Sabbat are the remains of the Anarch Rebellion. Obviously the Anarch Movement has different values than the Sabbat, who are the remains of the Anarch Rebellion. Did they both arise from the same group, with the Sabbat holding to the original agenda, or did the Anarchs just take the name and add their own values?
  • These new playable clans are separate clans entirely, not offshoots of the ones already extant, and generally elect to side with the Sabbat. The exception being the Lasombra who are the reverse, with the majority siding with the Camarilla.
  • Because of their decision to side with the Sabbat, or otherwise work against the Camarilla, these clans are branded "Antitribu" by the Camarilla. Does this mean that the designation is not observed by any other faction, including the Antitribu themselves, and that the other minority non-Camarilla factions are also branded Antitribu, or is that not done unless the minority factions take action against the Camarilla? I assume that the Antitribu brand can apply to one individual member, or to the collective, depending on context, just like Kindred can.
  • Since Antitribu means "against the tribe", any vampire who elects to join the Sabbat, or otherwise works against the Camarilla will be branded Antitribu, except for the Anarchists who don't take their rebellion to extremes, so the Camarilla believe that the Anarchists will eventually integrate into their society, correct?
  • There are, of course Antitribu from the clans in the vanilla game. These Antitribu versions of vanilla clans have different stat models and strengths and weaknesses than the non-Antitribu variety, because the division is physical, as well as political. Those who were, up until a recent time, beholden to the Camarilla, then decided to revolt, and were branded Antitribu, would likely not have the physical differences, since Antitribu is a designation, not an entirely different offshoot. This would make new Antitribu separate politically from the Camarilla and its adherents, and physically from the rest of the Antitribu, despite having the same designation.
  • The Antitribu Tremere are also physically different than the Camarilla Tremere, but that is less because of the political division prompting physical differences, and more because the Antitribu Tremere are actually the resurgence of a long though dead branch of the Tremere.
  • The Camarilla don't believe the Antediluvians exist, or that Gehenna is going to happen, and the Sabbat believe that the only way to prevent Gehenna is to eliminate every Antediluvian in existence. The Anarchs likely aren't concerned with any of this, focusing only on rebelling against the Camarilla, but not to the degree that they sympathize with the Sabbat, who they believe to be too animalistic.

Serpents of the Light are apparently the Followers of Set, but I don't see Panders and Ravnos in the selection list at character creation. Are they intended to be clans that cannot be played, or is it something that has not been implemented yet?

Offline IanW

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2017, 04:48:21 AM »
Wow. That's some pretty elaborate lore for a mod.

Bloodlines is based on the Vampire: The Masquerade tabletop RPG which has been published since 1991 (see links in my sig). Most of the lore comes from there. I work for the current publisher, which is why I'm often turned to as the local expert. I have no idea how much of what I posted is in the Antitribu mod. You asked where the name comes from, so I answered. :)

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This is a lot of information to take in at once, so let me try to summarize it, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

The main, non-clan divisions of vampire society are the Sabbat, the Camarilla, and, to a lesser degree, the Anarchs, who are believed by many to be part of the Camarilla and not yet accepting of that idea. Antitribu is not a faction itself, but rather a designation for those who don't side with the Camarilla.

Mostly it's vampires from non-Sabbat clans who are siding with the Sabbat. The Lasombra are the main exception, there.

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This evolved into a fanatical idea that the Antediluvians will one day attempt to burn all of the Kindred, and thus must be hunted down and wiped out to prevent this.

There's a bit more to it... particularly old vampires can't drink human blood anymore, they need to subsist on vampire blood. Roughly, the older you are, the more vampire blood can "store". So Antediluvans have been sleeping for millennia. They're hungry. They're going to need blood. Vampire blood.

Kindred who believe in the Antediluvians are less concerned about being burned by them when they wake up, and more concerned with being eaten by them.

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Did they both arise from the same group, with the Sabbat holding to the original agenda, or did the Anarchs just take the name and add their own values?

It's a bit too much to get into here, but roughly speaking the modern Anarch Movement and the Sabbat both came from the original anarch uprising.

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These new playable clans are separate clans entirely, not offshoots of the ones already extant, and generally elect to side with the Sabbat. The exception being the Lasombra who are the reverse, with the majority siding with the Camarilla.

Ventrue antitribu, for example, are still considered Ventrue. They primarily have a different sect allegiance, but may also have a few minor differences in how their blood expresses itself, but not to the degree that they're considered a new clan.

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Does this mean that the designation is not observed by any other faction, including the Antitribu themselves, and that the other minority non-Camarilla factions are also branded Antitribu, or is that not done unless the minority factions take action against the Camarilla? I assume that the Antitribu brand can apply to one individual member, or to the collective, depending on context, just like Kindred can.

Most Kindred use and understand the "antitribu" term, but individual usage varies. Lasombra antitribu for example, often feel like they're the truest Lasombra and have joined the winning side, so it's possible they may not call themselves antitribu. Other vampires may feel similarly. But in general, antitribu's pretty universal.

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Since Antitribu means "against the tribe", any vampire who elects to join the Sabbat, or otherwise works against the Camarilla will be branded Antitribu, except for the Anarchists who don't take their rebellion to extremes, so the Camarilla believe that the Anarchists will eventually integrate into their society, correct?

Reasons vary, but yes, antitribu pretty much exclusively applies to the Sabbat.

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Serpents of the Light are apparently the Followers of Set, but I don't see Panders and Ravnos in the selection list at character creation. Are they intended to be clans that cannot be played, or is it something that has not been implemented yet?

No idea. I'm not involved with the Antitribu mod. :) IIRC the Bloodlines code can generally only handle 7 clans at a time, though.
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Offline Malkav

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2017, 08:45:02 AM »
I'm not involved in the Antitribu mod either, but I can try to give some information on the technical aspects.
First, Ian is not quite right about the number of clans. In theory the game can handle a lot more than 7 clans, but in the character creation menu there is only room for seven clans. Troika intended to use only the Camarilla clans so there was no need to make the pulldown menu adaptable, but there are other ways to introduce more clans.
The main problem is that the game is hardcoded to accept only 13 disciplines, and since all six of the non-camarilla clans have their unique clan discipline introducing them is a problem.
So both mods that change the playable clans (Antitribu and The Final Nights) have chosen to stick with seven clans and selected them in a way that the discipline limit can be matched.
For Ravnos, afaik Antitribu had intended to use them, but the problem is their clan discipline Chimerstry is creating illusions, and how do you implement that in a computer game?

I'm not sure if lore was the descisive factor in Antiribu's clan selection or if they have used clans with interesting disciplines or clan weaknesses. Ian, are there "rogue" Giovanni out there without affiliation to the family?
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Offline IanW

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 03:20:10 PM »
I'm not sure if lore was the descisive factor in Antiribu's clan selection or if they have used clans with interesting disciplines or clan weaknesses. Ian, are there "rogue" Giovanni out there without affiliation to the family?

The Giovanni are a very tight-knit family, almost a small sect by themselves. "Rogue" members are extremely rare, and are usually hunted down lest they reveal the family's secrets. It's a lot easier to track someone down when you're a master of Necromancy and have wraiths at your command.

That said, the Camarilla and the Giovanni often have mutually-beneficial agreements, which can sometimes look very much like those Giovanni being part of the Cam.
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Offline mentos046

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 10:14:23 PM »
I thought the content in Antitribu was made for the mod, but it's actually the other way around? The mod is based on actual franchise lore? That makes it even more impressive.

That said, my original question still remains; does Antitribu feature the capacity to prevent Heather from dying? I like to avoid playing the ruthless tyrant where possible, but I'm not going to give up such an expansive mod to save one person, so if it's not an option, I'll just keep the mod.

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 11:35:52 PM »
That said, my original question still remains; does Antitribu feature the capacity to prevent Heather from dying?

Just remove the G.Patch_Plus == 1 condition from the line in Heather.dlg that you already found and it will probably work...

Offline mentos046

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2017, 12:01:08 AM »
I didn't find it, though. I used Ctrl+F to search for it, and nothing returned. If it's not supposed to be there, though, then it shouldn't be a problem, right?

Thanks for all your help so far. I'm sure you've got more important things to worry about, so I appreciate it.

Offline Malkav

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Re: Does Antitribu use the Unofficial Patch Plus?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2017, 08:47:16 AM »
Look if there is a line like this in Heather.dlg:
{   744   }{   Heather, promise me to stay indoors until this is over!   }{   Heather, promise me to stay indoors until this is over!   }{   761   }{   G.Patch_Plus == 1   }{   G.Heather_Indoors = 1   }{   }{   }{   }{   }{   }{   }{   Stay in the golden cage of the sky until I set you free.   }
Search for "indoors", that's the fastest way to find it. If there is such a line and there is nothing in the braces that contain "G.Patch_Plus == 1" it will work. If there is something else, tell me and I can tell you what it does.
If the line isn't there Antitribu won't allow you to keep her safe. Then you have to send her away at some time, I'd say after you got the sarcophagus back, to keep her at least alive.
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