Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Vampire: The Masquerade – Coteries of New York / Third Vampire Game!!!  (Read 5944 times)

Offline Highwayman667

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Highwayman, Wesp said "usual SJW stuff." YOU said he said "stupid SJW stuff." This gives the impression that you're deliberately misquoting him to build a strawman against him, or that you had a Freudian slip and believe "SJW stuff" is actually stupid. I don't disagree with that last sentiment...

"Trigger warnings" are what ratings should be for. Graphic violence, sexual violence, and drug use, profanity, should cover most everything relevant. It's the World of Darkness. It is a terrible place. If someone can't handle it, there are tons of games these soft folks can play instead.

Nobody is "soft folk" for having feelings, emotions and being sensitive to different issues. Everyone has the right to be properly warned about an experience that may be harmful to them in some way, shape or form. Nobody is a lesser person for that.

The reason why we're discussing this or why Cara Ellison probably brings this up is because the ratings system is ineffective at handling this, and with good reason since it's not even supposed to do that. The function of the ratings system is to prevent children from playing games that are not within their age range; it has no way whatsoever to prevent victims of sexual abuse to be exposed to content they might be sensitive to.

As for the "stupid SJW stuff", I didn't mean to misquote him and I can perfectly apologize... to him. My point remains the same, a lot of people that complain about "SJW stuff" are simply sounding off their own bigoted dog whistles: what is the problem of having trans, queer or LGBTI characters in a game ? Maybe none to you DarkProphet, but I think it's reasonable to assume that people who "don't want to see that type of content in a game" are usually bigots.

My only issue with "SJW stuff" is if it's represented poorly. Recently I finished watching Star Trek: Picard and I was dissapointed at their jabs at the Trump administration: they were poorly done, uncreative and they trivialized deeply problematic issues. They failed at conveying a message and so would be "my fear" with Brian and Cara when it comes to BL2.

Characters regardless the gender, race age or sexuality should be first interesting and not like we need more of XYZ because of our own agenda.

To clarify, I don't believe anyone (except perhaps the companies) are trying to fulfill any agenda of sorts.

I am from Venezuela and I've seen movies with my family since I've been five years old. Every time we saw someone from Venezuela, an actor or a character, it was usually a terrorist or drug dealer. This was something that bothered us a bit because it was obviously not representative of our culture. We are not terrorists or drug dealers and yet pop culture would've made you think otherwise during the 90's.

So I understand writers and developers when they say "Hey, what if we turned this cool and awesome character, who is white, into a black or hispanic person ? Maybe that would be an opportunity to represent people in a better light".

That's not really trying to serve an agenda, it's just being... nice and decent.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 06:08:39 PM by Highwayman667 »

Offline DarkProphet

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Nobody is "soft folk" for having feelings, emotions and being sensitive to different issues. Everyone has the right to be properly warned about an experience that may be harmful to them in some way, shape or form. Nobody is a lesser person for that.



I never said they're "lesser people." In fact, I believe they are greater people, in indeed their sensitivity to such issues comes purely from a place of innocence and/or an abhorrence of malice/wrongdoing, etc. My enjoyment of darker things is something I should not be proud of, and has left me desensitized in some ways I might be better off it I was not.



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The reason why we're discussing this or why Cara Ellison probably brings this up is because the ratings system is ineffective at handling this, and with good reason since it's not even supposed to do that. The function of the ratings system is to prevent children from playing games that are not within their age range; it has no way whatsoever to prevent victims of sexual abuse to be exposed to content they might be sensitive to.



But to "properly" give all trigger warnings and at the appropriate times so as to allow someone to play the game without doing a quest that might trigger him or her, you'd need to basically spoil the gist of every quest. For instance, "TRIGGER WARNING: contains cannibalism, rape, verbal abuse, petty larcency, profanity, murder, manslaughter," and so on, on any given quest (perhaps I'm misreading what you were wanting) would simply spoil the quest. If they were going to do this, they would need to have it be something you can turn off...maybe kinda like the Half-Life 2 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution developer diary speech bubbles you can touch and interact with optionally in those games.


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As for the "stupid SJW stuff", I didn't mean to misquote him and I can perfectly apologize... to him.

I'm not asking you to apologize to me, nor should there be any impression that I want you to since I already said I agree with the "stupid SJW stuff" statement.

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My point remains the same, a lot of people that complain about "SJW stuff" are simply sounding off their own bigoted dog whistles: what is the problem of having trans, queer or LGBTI characters in a game ? Maybe none to you DarkProphet, but I think it's reasonable to assume that people who "don't want to see that type of content in a game" are usually bigots.


That's quite a generalization to say that they're "usually bigots." Some people simply take umbrage with the agenda-driven normalization/"representation" of homosexuality and transsexuality. The issue isn't "How DAAARE that game have one gay character?!?!" The issue is...let's look at Borderlands: The Presequel. It's the one on the moon. While my friend and I are playing, she - who is a lesbian - proceeds to say "man, there's a lot of fuckin' lesbians on this moon." I cracked up due to the irony of a lesbian practically griping about the sheer volume of lesbians in a game, then thought on it a bit more and realized an issue: overrepresentation.

The percentage of people who ascribe to homosexuality, transsexuality, and various other groups are a tiny fraction of the population. Having one gay or lesbian character in a game with say...20 characters already overinflates the representation of homosexuality in the world. If you have 50 characters in a game, and one is a trans male, one is a trans female, one is gay, one is lesbian, and one is "queer," well now 10% of the population is made up of an anomaly in humanity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation ). This number is overrepresentation. Trans people are of a smaller population than LGB folks. One could claim that people are shy about proclaiming a different sexuality or gender for fear of repercussions, but that's purely speculation, and the media praises such folks. After all, Caitlyn Jenner is the most heroic human heroine that ever heroed, supposedly, and anyone who would say or do anything against the LGBTQ+ community will be socially lambasted and "cancelled." You could legit risk your life and save ten children you've never met before from drowning, but Caitlyn Jenner would be declared more of a hero.

So what we have is people misrepresenting human sexuality to serve some peculiar agenda to cram as many characters of a certain sexuality as they can "get away with" into certain games, movies, etc. Rather than ascribe some intentionally bad motive on their part, I'll pretend that they're trying to make people find homosexuality and the like to be more normal and like they shouldn't feel uncomfortable around folks of a different sexuality or whatever, and I think that's a nice sentiment. However, noticeably overpopulating/forcing a setting to be full of a statistical anomaly of people without in-universe explanation comes off as flagrant manipulation of the audience and an insult of its intelligence by being such obvious propaganda in the place of entertainment.

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My only issue with "SJW stuff" is if it's represented poorly. Recently I finished watching Star Trek: Picard and I was dissapointed at their jabs at the Trump administration: they were poorly done, uncreative and they trivialized deeply problematic issues. They failed at conveying a message and so would be "my fear" with Brian and Cara when it comes to BL2.


Oh man, I watched Critical Drinker's and Redlettermedia's reviews on that show, and it was hilaaaarious. "Sheer. Fucking. Hubris.~" I didn't watch the show, but I've seen enough clips and heard enough about it to know that it was lazy propaganda, and disrespectful to Star Trek. Star Trek usually presented some societal issue but didn't slap you across the face with what you should or shouldn't do. It was more the presentation of the pros and cons of each side of an argument, and even if one side was chosen, they would often regret part of the decision or wonder if the other way would have been better. Not always, but it was a philosophical thing, and a fun exercise in thought of real-world topics being presented in a sci-fi setting. Apparently they just straight up shat the bed with Picard and shove your face in the writer's opinions.
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To clarify, I don't believe anyone (except perhaps the companies) are trying to fulfill any agenda of sorts.

I am from Venezuela and I've seen movies with my family since I've been five years old. Every time we saw someone from Venezuela, an actor or a character, it was usually a terrorist or drug dealer. This was something that bothered us a bit because it was obviously not representative of our culture. We are not terrorists or drug dealers and yet pop culture would've made you think otherwise during the 90's.




So the entertainment industry is falsely representing your nation and you don't like it. I'm glad we're on the same page, then. That means you should be totally fine with reducing the number of African American scientists shown in TV shows and movies since it misrepresents the United States to the public:
 https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/occupation/overall.cfm and https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2017/nsf17310/digest/occupation/blacks.cfm


I'm being facetious to some extent, though. It's a lie, just as the Venezuela stuff you don't like is a lie, and just as the overpopulation in certain pieces of fiction of LGBTQ+ characters is a lie.


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So I understand writers and developers when they say "Hey, what if we turned this cool and awesome character, who is white, into a black or hispanic person ? Maybe that would be an opportunity to represent people in a better light".

That's not really trying to serve an agenda, it's just being... nice and decent.





Yeah, just like if I went in and changed a bunch of non-white characters to be white because I want to be "nice and decent."  :rofl: 


That's the writers effectively saying "Uh-oh...we don't know how to represent non-whites in a positive light, so lets just turn the white characters people love into non-white characters. God forbid we can write a non-white character well." It's clear to me that skin color is the most important thing to people who think like this. Skin color should not be a quota, and "converting" someone from one skin color to another because you suck at writing implies that you don't know how to write characters who aren't white.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 09:31:13 PM by DarkProphet »

Offline Valamyr

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I didn't read the whole thread but I recently played this and found it fairly disappointing, mainly on grounds of being ridiculously short. I knew I was getting a graphic novel and I'm fine with that format but it ends ridiculously abruptly in a railroaded fashion. This makes replay value just about nil save for seeing different companions. They got the overall theme and vibe right, but that's about it. Feels like you're only playing chapter 1 of a book, really. 

Offline Nanaloma

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When I was young, we had a saying, "grow up!".  The world is not a nice place.  People need to thicken their skin.  If everyone got ballistic about such things, nobody would be able to work together.  The world will never be perfect especially since there is no agreement whatsoever on what would be a perfect world.  It's self-centered to think a group should make their world into their narrow view of perfect.  There's no need for additional warnings.  If you buy a game as soon as it is published, then you may be negatively surprised in multiple ways.  If you are sensitive, then wait until the bugs are out and the game is known on forums and reviews to buy.  That will warn you.   There are a lot of things I didn't like in VMBL1 but I ignored these because I enjoyed playing the game.  I think the key is, if enough things offend you, don't buy the game.  This was a "mature" rated game and that alone makes the audience a clique.  We like the roughness, the grittiness, etc - features that keep away a large audience and the lack of which often keeps us away.  If this game doesn't offend some people, it won't sell. 

 

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