Author Topic: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?  (Read 1719 times)

Online DarkProphet

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2019, 05:46:57 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Aside from like...masses of flesh-eating insects, the only thing that would kill a Kindred without damaging the bed and clearly leaving the head fully intact and attached at the spine, etc., would be the draining of all the Kindred's vitae, whether done by Diablerie or simply letting all the blood out.

Agreed, and he would have had very clever help.  Ming. And Ming wasn't THAT kind of vampire.  She would gain no benefit from attempting to commit diablerie, there was not blood splashed all over the room and she certainly wasn't carrying any with her when she was disguised as Nines.  And we already know what a double dealer she was. She had NO honor when it came to her word. If Grout had something that would benefit her in some way  (after all she wanted to know the best ways to dispatch Kindred) that he would withhold from her until she had successfully helped him, she would easily trade for that item or knowledge and help him fake his death.  Who knows what he collected or what he learned from his years and years of research.  It would be in her best interest not to reveal the deception either as she had also made a deal with LaCrpix.  LaCroix got what he wanted from the deal either way anyway.

That said, killing Grout would be advantageous to her. Cathayans (Kuei-Jim) have spies gathering data, so it's likely she knows what Malkavians are capable. Leaving Grout alive - if he did indeed have visions of what was happening in L.A. - would be bad for her plans. She would want him dead. And it's not like she had any way of getting him out of that house. There's no believable way that he got out of there. We covered it from top to bottom.

No believable way?  We got in through the front door AS she was leaving through it, so before the fire, it was still workin'...

If your position is that we would have had to see that happen...why?  Who's to say they didn't carry on with a cover up plan long before we ever arrived?  It just had to LOOK like it happened just before Nines was leaving. 

If he had information that was worth much more to her than he was trouble to her, she would have gone with keeping him alive.  At least until she got what she wanted, and who's to say the Fledgling hadn't killed her ass before she ever had her chance to finally strike at Grout?  OR maybe he fled to Seattle and Seattle was far away enough for him to be out of the way, as far as she was concerned.  There is no reason to believe that its utterly impossible that he faked his death and as of Bloodlines 2 is still alive, just chillin' in Seattle with his new test subjects. 

Edit:  Although I did just think of a fly in the ointment. 

What of his wife?  I doubt he would have left her behind in an effort to fake his own death, now that I think about it.  Unless he finally had given up on her as a lost cause or unless that wasn't really her in the glass thingie.  What might be interesting is if SHE survived the events of the first game and makes an appearance in Seattle, having taken up where her husband left off.  Her status according to the fandom wiki is currently "unknown".  I always assumed that he had at some point embraced her and that her "illness" was mental aka she was a Malkavian.

I think your point about the wife is an excellent one and would cater toward it being extremely unlikely that Grout would willingly fake his death. His wife was the most important thing in the world to him, or so it seemed based on his recordings. Before anyone claims the recordings were BS, they seem pretty damn sincere and like they're meant to be private memoirs he wouldn't want others hearing (despite leaving them out in the open XD).

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2019, 05:59:59 AM »
As I recall, Grout's sanctum wasn't ground floor or basement.  Sunlight could have done it.  He didn't know he was a vampire until after the house was built so the room likely had windows.  I don't remember if I actually saw any however but I also don't remember seeing the entire room. 

As per his wife, I believe Grout says in one of the recordings that the disease inflicting him and his wife was indeed vampirism.

There didn't seem to be any windows in his bedroom where he was supposedly found dead, however.  I checked.  lol

I think your point about the wife is an excellent one and would cater toward it being extremely unlikely that Grout would willingly fake his death. His wife was the most important thing in the world to him, or so it seemed based on his recordings. Before anyone claims the recordings were BS, they seem pretty damn sincere and like they're meant to be private memoirs he wouldn't want others hearing (despite leaving them out in the open XD).

So I think it would make more sense to bring her back rather than him.  We never heard that she burned up in the fire, after all. 

That being said, with some especially clever writing they could bring Grout back, along with his wife, if they wanted to.  My fear is if they decided to go that route, they might NOT do it very cleverly.  lol 

Online DarkProphet

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2019, 06:06:51 AM »
As I recall, Grout's sanctum wasn't ground floor or basement.  Sunlight could have done it.  He didn't know he was a vampire until after the house was built so the room likely had windows.  I don't remember if I actually saw any however but I also don't remember seeing the entire room. 

As per his wife, I believe Grout says in one of the recordings that the disease inflicting him and his wife was indeed vampirism.

There didn't seem to be any windows in his bedroom where he was supposedly found dead, however.  I checked.  lol

I think your point about the wife is an excellent one and would cater toward it being extremely unlikely that Grout would willingly fake his death. His wife was the most important thing in the world to him, or so it seemed based on his recordings. Before anyone claims the recordings were BS, they seem pretty damn sincere and like they're meant to be private memoirs he wouldn't want others hearing (despite leaving them out in the open XD).

So I think it would make more sense to bring her back rather than him.  We never heard that she burned up in the fire, after all. 

That being said, with some especially clever writing they could bring Grout back, along with his wife, if they wanted to.  My fear is if they decided to go that route, they might NOT do it very cleverly.  lol

I'm with Highwayman on this issue as far as deaths having no meaning if they're faked. When someone pulls that in a work of fiction, it had better be jaw-droppingly awesome and bring tears of joy and awe to my eyes when I behold the twist. If not, then the twist can rot in hell.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2019, 08:06:14 AM »
As I recall, Grout's sanctum wasn't ground floor or basement.  Sunlight could have done it.  He didn't know he was a vampire until after the house was built so the room likely had windows.  I don't remember if I actually saw any however but I also don't remember seeing the entire room. 

As per his wife, I believe Grout says in one of the recordings that the disease inflicting him and his wife was indeed vampirism.

There didn't seem to be any windows in his bedroom where he was supposedly found dead, however.  I checked.  lol

I think your point about the wife is an excellent one and would cater toward it being extremely unlikely that Grout would willingly fake his death. His wife was the most important thing in the world to him, or so it seemed based on his recordings. Before anyone claims the recordings were BS, they seem pretty damn sincere and like they're meant to be private memoirs he wouldn't want others hearing (despite leaving them out in the open XD).

So I think it would make more sense to bring her back rather than him.  We never heard that she burned up in the fire, after all. 

That being said, with some especially clever writing they could bring Grout back, along with his wife, if they wanted to.  My fear is if they decided to go that route, they might NOT do it very cleverly.  lol

I'm with Highwayman on this issue as far as deaths having no meaning if they're faked. When someone pulls that in a work of fiction, it had better be jaw-droppingly awesome and bring tears of joy and awe to my eyes when I behold the twist. If not, then the twist can rot in hell.

Would you have a problem with the return of old Mrs. Grout?

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2019, 08:19:50 AM »
I'm with Highwayman on this issue as far as deaths having no meaning if they're faked. When someone pulls that in a work of fiction, it had better be jaw-droppingly awesome and bring tears of joy and awe to my eyes when I behold the twist. If not, then the twist can rot in hell.

I agree. Also Grout would never leave his wife behind and in my opinion the mansion burned down and she died in the fire! As for how Ming got to Grout, if you listen to his recordings he talks about a Faustian bargain. I believe he wanted to meet Nines to talk about LaCroix and Ming used this to get near to him. And his voices already warned him about her, but he didn't understand it at the time: "... a macabre and formless menace the approach of which portends an end..."

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2019, 09:03:48 AM »
I'm with Highwayman on this issue as far as deaths having no meaning if they're faked. When someone pulls that in a work of fiction, it had better be jaw-droppingly awesome and bring tears of joy and awe to my eyes when I behold the twist. If not, then the twist can rot in hell.

I agree. Also Grout would never leave his wife behind and in my opinion the mansion burned down and she died in the fire! As for how Ming got to Grout, if you listen to his recordings he talks about a Faustian bargain. I believe he wanted to meet Nines to talk about LaCroix and Ming used this to get near to him. And his voices already warned him about her, but he didn't understand it at the time: "... a macabre and formless menace the approach of which portends an end..."

I'm personally in no rush to see either of them return, but I do think its possible that it could be done.  I guess the question is, SHOULD it be done and why?  I am very curious to know what the OP's take is on all of the discussion that has taken place thus far. 

Offline z

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2019, 12:50:20 PM »
Maybe not Grout himself, but maybe Grout's sire ?
Indeed, the reason why Grout was embraced remains a mystery to this day. If Grout's sire makes an appearance, maybe this mystery could be uncovered ? Since his sire abandoned Grout, maybe his sire is from the Sabbat ?

If that's the case, I can't wait to roam in this Sire's spooky dungeon on sweet madness ! Malk's powaaaa !

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2019, 01:06:35 PM »
Maybe not Grout himself, but maybe Grout's sire ?
Indeed, the reason why Grout was embraced remains a mystery to this day. If Grout's sire makes an appearance, maybe this mystery could be uncovered ? Since his sire abandoned Grout, maybe his sire is from the Sabbat ?

If that's the case, I can't wait to roam in this Sire's spooky dungeon on sweet madness ! Malk's powaaaa !

His sire didn't abandon him, she was destroyed, unfortunately.  She was admitted as a patient at his Asylum by unknowing humans and while there, she embraced the doctor but before she could explain anything about being a vampire in her own Malky way, she was taken to the outside pen by orderlies where she went up in flames and met her final death.  He explains as much on his tape recordings.

Offline z

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2019, 01:16:16 PM »
Maybe not Grout himself, but maybe Grout's sire ?
Indeed, the reason why Grout was embraced remains a mystery to this day. If Grout's sire makes an appearance, maybe this mystery could be uncovered ? Since his sire abandoned Grout, maybe his sire is from the Sabbat ?

If that's the case, I can't wait to roam in this Sire's spooky dungeon on sweet madness ! Malk's powaaaa !

His sire didn't abandon him, she was destroyed, unfortunately.  She was admitted as a patient at his Asylum by unknowing humans and while there, she embraced the doctor but before she could explain anything about being a vampire in her own Malky way, she was taken to the outside pen by orderlies where she went up in flames and met her final death.  He explains as much on his tape recordings.
Oh ? I didn't understand this. I listened all the recordings but I guess my english level is not good enough. English is not my native language. Sorry haha

Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2019, 05:38:40 PM »
What would you like to see from a returned Grout if they did bring him back?
Well my personal opinion on resurrecting Grout is that i don´t mind if they bring him.
Its possible but Grout needs for that a good reason to justify his comeback.

The only good storypart that they can use its his wife and the search for a cure.
But to be honest this is another Mr Freeze Story. Is this story worth it?
I don´t know but i opened this Thread because some folks in other forum have suggested to bring him because
we don´t know for sure that he is dead and also he was one of more iconic Bloodlines 1 characters.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2019, 06:13:44 PM »
Maybe not Grout himself, but maybe Grout's sire ?
Indeed, the reason why Grout was embraced remains a mystery to this day. If Grout's sire makes an appearance, maybe this mystery could be uncovered ? Since his sire abandoned Grout, maybe his sire is from the Sabbat ?

If that's the case, I can't wait to roam in this Sire's spooky dungeon on sweet madness ! Malk's powaaaa !

His sire didn't abandon him, she was destroyed, unfortunately.  She was admitted as a patient at his Asylum by unknowing humans and while there, she embraced the doctor but before she could explain anything about being a vampire in her own Malky way, she was taken to the outside pen by orderlies where she went up in flames and met her final death.  He explains as much on his tape recordings.
Oh ? I didn't understand this. I listened all the recordings but I guess my english level is not good enough. English is not my native language. Sorry haha

No need to apologize, I mean, I thought your speculation was pretty interesting, it made me regret that she was dead.  LOL

What would you like to see from a returned Grout if they did bring him back?
Well my personal opinion on resurrecting Grout is that i don´t mind if they bring him.
Its possible but Grout needs for that a good reason to justify his comeback.

The only good storypart that they can use its his wife and the search for a cure.
But to be honest this is another Mr Freeze Story. Is this story worth it?
I don´t know but i opened this Thread because some folks in other forum have suggested to bring him because
we don´t know for sure that he is dead and also he was one of more iconic Bloodlines 1 characters.

I suppose it could be interesting to bring him back as a way of tying the second game more to the first, but there is certainly ample opportunity with a new game to tell new and interesting stories as well.  We could use some call backs to the original game, of course.  Grout was certainly iconic.  I liked his voice actor very much.  He did a great job of helping an off screen character that we never get to actually see alive be one of the most memorable characters in the whole game.  That says something about his acting and about the writing. 

Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2019, 06:37:07 PM »
I suppose it could be interesting to bring him back as a way of tying the second game more to the first, but there is certainly ample opportunity with a new game to tell new and interesting stories as well.  We could use some call backs to the original game, of course.  Grout was certainly iconic.  I liked his voice actor very much.  He did a great job of helping an off screen character that we never get to actually see alive be one of the most memorable characters in the whole game.
 That says something about his acting and about the writing.
Of course he should return only in a bigger and more significant role but just a small cameo. This would be pointless but
if Brian or an other  Author really likes Grout and writes him a meaningful storyarc why not?

Also i suspect that most players hate death retcons because they killed this certain character.
Even to this day some Dragon Age players hate that Bioware have resurrected Leliana.
But Grout on the other hand wasn´t killed by the player.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2019, 07:06:26 PM »
I suppose it could be interesting to bring him back as a way of tying the second game more to the first, but there is certainly ample opportunity with a new game to tell new and interesting stories as well.  We could use some call backs to the original game, of course.  Grout was certainly iconic.  I liked his voice actor very much.  He did a great job of helping an off screen character that we never get to actually see alive be one of the most memorable characters in the whole game.
 That says something about his acting and about the writing.
Of course he should return only in a bigger and more significant role but just a small cameo. This would be pointless but
if Brian or an other  Author really likes Grout and writes him a meaningful storyarc why not?

Also i suspect that most players hate death retcons because they killed this certain character.
Even to this day some Dragon Age players hate that Bioware have resurrected Leliana.
But Grout on the other hand wasn´t killed by the player.

I guess I forgot that in some playthroughs Leliana could be dead. 

I just did a bit of research before completing this reply and the explanation is pretty awesome though.  She didn't really get resurrected.  You learn something very interesting in her Trespasser epilogue if A) she was killed by the Warden in DAO and B) she isn't then made into the Divine.  It actually gave me chills.   

Offline Pumma

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2019, 07:15:37 PM »
You are looking for interesting Malkavian but Grout is too rational for a Malkavian and on top of that very dead. They could bring Tourette's sire. It seems that he is a powerful Methuselah even crazier than Tourette herself and lives in Milwauke.

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2019, 09:15:16 PM »
I'm with Highwayman on this issue as far as deaths having no meaning if they're faked. When someone pulls that in a work of fiction, it had better be jaw-droppingly awesome and bring tears of joy and awe to my eyes when I behold the twist. If not, then the twist can rot in hell.

I agree. Also Grout would never leave his wife behind and in my opinion the mansion burned down and she died in the fire! As for how Ming got to Grout, if you listen to his recordings he talks about a Faustian bargain. I believe he wanted to meet Nines to talk about LaCroix and Ming used this to get near to him. And his voices already warned him about her, but he didn't understand it at the time: "... a macabre and formless menace the approach of which portends an end..."

I took that line to be alluding to Gehenna but I see your point.