Author Topic: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?  (Read 1718 times)

Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« on: June 02, 2019, 06:28:39 PM »
I want to give this topic an own thread.
The question is interessing but should they ignore Grouts death and bring him back or should he stay dead?
Some players have speculated in the past that Grout isn´t dead. That he only had faked his death because
"is very, very unlikely that a vampire of such an age would leave a skeleton after his Final Death.
This allows presuming that Alistair went into hiding and left some younger vampire to be killed instead.
(Or that the creators of the game are under no obligation to follow every single rule in the VTM's book.) "
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Alistair_Grout

I wouldn´t mind this "retcon" but maybe some players would hate this.
So whats your opinion on this?

Online DarkProphet

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 06:38:30 PM »
I want to give this topic an own thread.
The question is interessing but should they ignore Grouts death and bring him back or should he stay dead?
Some players have speculated in the past that Grout isn´t dead. That he only had faked his death because
"is very, very unlikely that a vampire of such an age would leave a skeleton after his Final Death.
This allows presuming that Alistair went into hiding and left some younger vampire to be killed instead.
(Or that the creators of the game are under no obligation to follow every single rule in the VTM's book.) "
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Alistair_Grout

I wouldn´t mind this "retcon" but maybe some players would hate this.
So whats your opinion on this?

Changing plot points of a prior game rarely goes over well with fans of the original. The original game proclaims multiple times that he's dead with no hints of anything to the contrary.

Moreover, it would imply that Ming Xiao - a master of deception and changing forms herself - was easily duped and unable to see through the trickery.

As fun as psychiatrist Malkavians are, two of the most common archetypes of Malks are people who already had a mental illness...and people working in the psychiatric field. Therefore, we hardly need the storyline of Bloodlines 1 to be messed with to give us a well-spoken Malkavian psychiatrist. I would love to see some cameos and returning folks from Bloodlines 1 in the sequel, but I would rather plot points from Bloodlines 1 be left alone.

Offline Barabbah

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 08:27:51 PM »
Why not Tin Can Bill then? :P
Ok, being more serious: whenever some character might return (even from Redemption or any of the books) they will stick to a few and only those canonically (and without any doubt) living or undead. I know it's fun speculating on it but I've stopped following the main thread since it was becoming too much to keep up. Heck, we have still to wait 10 months, try to relax :vampwink:
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Online DarkProphet

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 08:37:59 PM »
Why not Tin Can Bill then? :P
Ok, being more serious: whenever some character might return (even from Redemption or any of the books) they will stick to a few and only those canonically (and without any doubt) living or undead. I know it's fun speculating on it but I've stopped following the main thread since it was becoming too much to keep up. Heck, we have still to wait 10 months, try to relax :vampwink:

Redemption? Oh dude, now you're making me imagine Serena returning. <3

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 09:15:49 PM »
I wouldn´t mind this "retcon" but maybe some players would hate this.
So whats your opinion on this?

I don't think it's about wether we'd "hate" it.

It's that death needs to have meaning. If a character has supposedly died, then it should stay dead, otherwise what is the point of loss and finality ?

For all we know, Alistair Grout is dead. That's it. If he was supposed to be dead in that bed, then I think he should stay dead.

Offline Wilhelm Streicher 19

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 10:09:28 PM »
For all we know, Alistair Grout is dead. That's it. If he was supposed to be dead in that bed, then I think he should stay dead.
But do we really know its him? We as the playercharacter did only saw a skeleton covered in ashes.
Isn´t there an old videogame rule for this if you didn´t see the body and don´t identify it with your own eyes the character isn´t dead?
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 10:41:05 PM by Wilhelm Streicher 19 »

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 12:28:24 AM »
What would you like to see from a returned Grout if they did bring him back?

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 01:20:01 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 01:50:06 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 02:32:33 AM »
In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Half of those questions can be answered with "the developers just weren't that thorough" xD ...

It's not outside the realm of possibility given the circumstances but... if he was ever intended to be dead. If it truly was his ashes in that bed, then let him be dead.

Give us a new, crazier malkavian ! Not everything needs to be recycled.
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Online DarkProphet

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2019, 03:41:50 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Aside from like...masses of flesh-eating insects, the only thing that would kill a Kindred without damaging the bed and clearly leaving the head fully intact and attached at the spine, etc., would be the draining of all the Kindred's vitae, whether done by Diablerie or simply letting all the blood out.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2019, 04:15:33 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Aside from like...masses of flesh-eating insects, the only thing that would kill a Kindred without damaging the bed and clearly leaving the head fully intact and attached at the spine, etc., would be the draining of all the Kindred's vitae, whether done by Diablerie or simply letting all the blood out.

Agreed, and he would have had very clever help.  Ming. And Ming wasn't THAT kind of vampire.  She would gain no benefit from attempting to commit diablerie, there was not blood splashed all over the room and she certainly wasn't carrying any with her when she was disguised as Nines.  And we already know what a double dealer she was. She had NO honor when it came to her word. If Grout had something that would benefit her in some way  (after all she wanted to know the best ways to dispatch Kindred) that he would withhold from her until she had successfully helped him, she would easily trade for that item or knowledge and help him fake his death.  Who knows what he collected or what he learned from his years and years of research.  It would be in her best interest not to reveal the deception either as she had also made a deal with LaCrpix.  LaCroix got what he wanted from the deal either way anyway.

Online DarkProphet

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2019, 04:35:19 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Aside from like...masses of flesh-eating insects, the only thing that would kill a Kindred without damaging the bed and clearly leaving the head fully intact and attached at the spine, etc., would be the draining of all the Kindred's vitae, whether done by Diablerie or simply letting all the blood out.

Agreed, and he would have had very clever help.  Ming. And Ming wasn't THAT kind of vampire.  She would gain no benefit from attempting to commit diablerie, there was not blood splashed all over the room and she certainly wasn't carrying any with her when she was disguised as Nines.  And we already know what a double dealer she was. She had NO honor when it came to her word. If Grout had something that would benefit her in some way  (after all she wanted to know the best ways to dispatch Kindred) that he would withhold from her until she had successfully helped him, she would easily trade for that item or knowledge and help him fake his death.  Who knows what he collected or what he learned from his years and years of research.  It would be in her best interest not to reveal the deception either as she had also made a deal with LaCrpix.  LaCroix got what he wanted from the deal either way anyway.

That said, killing Grout would be advantageous to her. Cathayans (Kuei-Jim) have spies gathering data, so it's likely she knows what Malkavians are capable. Leaving Grout alive - if he did indeed have visions of what was happening in L.A. - would be bad for her plans. She would want him dead. And it's not like she had any way of getting him out of that house. There's no believable way that he got out of there. We covered it from top to bottom.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2019, 04:54:17 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Aside from like...masses of flesh-eating insects, the only thing that would kill a Kindred without damaging the bed and clearly leaving the head fully intact and attached at the spine, etc., would be the draining of all the Kindred's vitae, whether done by Diablerie or simply letting all the blood out.

Agreed, and he would have had very clever help.  Ming. And Ming wasn't THAT kind of vampire.  She would gain no benefit from attempting to commit diablerie, there was not blood splashed all over the room and she certainly wasn't carrying any with her when she was disguised as Nines.  And we already know what a double dealer she was. She had NO honor when it came to her word. If Grout had something that would benefit her in some way  (after all she wanted to know the best ways to dispatch Kindred) that he would withhold from her until she had successfully helped him, she would easily trade for that item or knowledge and help him fake his death.  Who knows what he collected or what he learned from his years and years of research.  It would be in her best interest not to reveal the deception either as she had also made a deal with LaCrpix.  LaCroix got what he wanted from the deal either way anyway.

That said, killing Grout would be advantageous to her. Cathayans (Kuei-Jim) have spies gathering data, so it's likely she knows what Malkavians are capable. Leaving Grout alive - if he did indeed have visions of what was happening in L.A. - would be bad for her plans. She would want him dead. And it's not like she had any way of getting him out of that house. There's no believable way that he got out of there. We covered it from top to bottom.

No believable way?  We got in through the front door AS she was leaving through it, so before the fire, it was still workin'...

If your position is that we would have had to see that happen...why?  Who's to say they didn't carry on with a cover up plan long before we ever arrived?  It just had to LOOK like it happened just before Nines was leaving. 

If he had information that was worth much more to her than he was trouble to her, she would have gone with keeping him alive.  At least until she got what she wanted, and who's to say the Fledgling hadn't killed her ass before she ever had her chance to finally strike at Grout?  OR maybe he fled to Seattle and Seattle was far away enough for him to be out of the way, as far as she was concerned.  There is no reason to believe that its utterly impossible that he faked his death and as of Bloodlines 2 is still alive, just chillin' in Seattle with his new test subjects. 

Edit:  Although I did just think of a fly in the ointment. 

What of his wife?  I doubt he would have left her behind in an effort to fake his own death, now that I think about it.  Unless he finally had given up on her as a lost cause or unless that wasn't really her in the glass thingie.  What might be interesting is if SHE survived the events of the first game and makes an appearance in Seattle, having taken up where her husband left off.  Her status according to the fandom wiki is currently "unknown".  I always assumed that he had at some point embraced her and that her "illness" was mental aka she was a Malkavian. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 05:03:23 AM by DarkZephyr »

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Should Dr. Alistair Grout make a return?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2019, 05:42:27 AM »
Also this wouldn´t  be first retcon in a RPG. :) In Bioware Games especially were a few death retcons.

I don't think retcons ever work. It's why mainstream comic books can't be taken seriously nowadays, because nobody stays dead.

In this case it wouldn't be that big of a stretch if you ask me.  All you saw on the bed was a skeleton with a stake through it.  To me that kind of looks a bit staged anyway.  Stakes through the heart don't kill vampires.  So what actually did kill him if it really was him?  Sure, the stake could be said to have been put there to immobilize him while something else was done to him, but WHAT was done to him?  Vampires don't die especially easily.  If he was set on fire...why is the bed not burned?  The stake? Why was the house not blazing in flames BEFORE the Fledgling arrived?  And even the fact that he was caught unawares while in bed is sketchy to me.  He was clearly very paranoid and afraid for his life as it is.  Plus we already know that he knew how to fake his own death, he had done it before.

Anyway, the points above do not mean that I think Grout really faked his own final death but they do mean that he easily could have and it shouldn't outrage any fans.  I mean, the scene looks like it could SCREAM "hints that I am really alive" in my own opinion.

Aside from like...masses of flesh-eating insects, the only thing that would kill a Kindred without damaging the bed and clearly leaving the head fully intact and attached at the spine, etc., would be the draining of all the Kindred's vitae, whether done by Diablerie or simply letting all the blood out.

Agreed, and he would have had very clever help.  Ming. And Ming wasn't THAT kind of vampire.  She would gain no benefit from attempting to commit diablerie, there was not blood splashed all over the room and she certainly wasn't carrying any with her when she was disguised as Nines.  And we already know what a double dealer she was. She had NO honor when it came to her word. If Grout had something that would benefit her in some way  (after all she wanted to know the best ways to dispatch Kindred) that he would withhold from her until she had successfully helped him, she would easily trade for that item or knowledge and help him fake his death.  Who knows what he collected or what he learned from his years and years of research.  It would be in her best interest not to reveal the deception either as she had also made a deal with LaCrpix.  LaCroix got what he wanted from the deal either way anyway.

As I recall, Grout's sanctum wasn't ground floor or basement.  Sunlight could have done it.  He didn't know he was a vampire until after the house was built so the room likely had windows.  I don't remember if I actually saw any however but I also don't remember seeing the entire room. 

As per his wife, I believe Grout says in one of the recordings that the disease inflicting him and his wife was indeed vampirism. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 05:46:56 AM by Nanaloma »