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Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #240 on: May 18, 2019, 05:17:29 AM »
There's fair criticism of almost everything made by mankind. And whether a person is mentally ill or not isn't necessarily inherently apparent enough for you to say that I'm clearly not mentally ill. You don't have to be incapable of throwing together a few rational thoughts with some eloquence to feign sanity. Just look at Alistair Grout. ;)

Even if you were (or weren't) mentally ill, there would still be other people that wouldn't like to be portrayed in a bad light, and it's important to hear them out too because they watch movies and enjoy videogames just as much as us.

But then we get into the argument of "How dare you have a black villain in your movie?!" "Why is a woman the evildoer?!" "This isn't the representation we deserve!" etc. Fiction will have people of all sorts portrayed in a bad light. Oh, and let's not forget about THIS asshole in the past week: https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/13/18617783/rage-2-impressions-characters-enemies-mutants

To say that the mentally ill watch movies and enjoy video games as much as us sounds intrinsically false, since the number of sane versus insane people is too great a number. Sure, you might have a handful of very obsessed mentally ill folks to might consume more than the average person, but sheer population of the sane will easily overcome such outliers. Long story short, I am not seeing anyone mentally ill being butt-hurt about Malkavians. It's the sane people who throw shit-fits about all those other "social justice" topics that no one asked for.

If you want to get technical...I could contend that EVERY clan is mentally ill. Brujah: out of control rage to the point of homicide against multiple people including the innocent who never said or did anything to offend the Brujah in question. Toreador: go into a trance-like obsessed state upon seeing something they find beautiful to the point of suicidal tendencies (stand there and let enemies kill you or stand and watch a beautiful sunrise, turning you to ash even if you wanted to go on "living"). Gangrel: Take on animal-like actions/behaviors and often lean toward anti-social tendencies.

Tremere: sociopathic experimentation (will kidnap, kill, etc. to test theories/learn more Thaumaturgy) and extreme tribalism to keep others oblivious to their own clan's dealings. Ventrue: absolutely obsessed with obtaining power, and an unnatural urge to have everyone agree with them, refusing to accept any less than that. One might say the Nosferatu condition is justified...but only until they raise Obfuscate to get Mask of 1000 faces and such. At that point, they should become more social, but they often do not. I'll mostly give them a pass, though.

Need I explain the Tzimisce, Followers of Set (Ministry), Ravnos, and so on as having inherent mental illness traits? The only difference between Malks and the rest of them is that Malks get the "label" of mental illness. Works for me. They're the beloved ones while all the others are just viewed as doing wicked acts when they adhere to their clans' traits.

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By the way, and relating to this topic... how the hell is Presence supposed to work in BL2 ?

So supposedly the first power sort of "stuns" people into admiration. But why does the second power serve as a "distraction" to other people ? Isn't it the other way ? If some dude is surrounded by a lot of people then wouldn't he attract the attention of onlookers ?

I knew presence would still suck.

They say it will also help you in dialog, so it sounds like Presence options will pop up like Dominate, Persuasion, etc. That would be great since Presence should give you the best outcomes without the person later realize they were straight up mind-controlled or something (i.e. Dominate). My guess about the second power serving as a "distraction" is for use in combat or evading law enforcement. The average hired gun is going to be expecting a lone person matching your description out at night...not someone with a group of followers boldly strutting down the road. For some reason, I think of Altair mixing in with other hooded people in the first Assassin's Creed to avoid notice.

Now that said, it sounds lame to me, too. Unless it's a situation like the museum in Bloodlines 1 where I have to NOT kill some hostiles (the guards) for better rewards, then I would want to just kill everything...not sneak past them. After all, that's where I would get my blood, ammo, etc.

I wonder if we can feed in a group that we collect without people noticing since they won't assume we're "attacking" someone if we're doing it in front of half a dozen people?

Offline fylimar

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #241 on: May 18, 2019, 08:02:27 AM »
There's fair criticism of almost everything made by mankind. And whether a person is mentally ill or not isn't necessarily inherently apparent enough for you to say that I'm clearly not mentally ill. You don't have to be incapable of throwing together a few rational thoughts with some eloquence to feign sanity. Just look at Alistair Grout. ;)

Even if you were (or weren't) mentally ill, there would still be other people that wouldn't like to be portrayed in a bad light, and it's important to hear them out too because they watch movies and enjoy videogames just as much as us.

But then we get into the argument of "How dare you have a black villain in your movie?!" "Why is a woman the evildoer?!" "This isn't the representation we deserve!" etc. Fiction will have people of all sorts portrayed in a bad light. Oh, and let's not forget about THIS asshole in the past week: https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/13/18617783/rage-2-impressions-characters-enemies-mutants

To say that the mentally ill watch movies and enjoy video games as much as us sounds intrinsically false, since the number of sane versus insane people is too great a number. Sure, you might have a handful of very obsessed mentally ill folks to might consume more than the average person, but sheer population of the sane will easily overcome such outliers. Long story short, I am not seeing anyone mentally ill being butt-hurt about Malkavians. It's the sane people who throw shit-fits about all those other "social justice" topics that no one asked for.

If you want to get technical...I could contend that EVERY clan is mentally ill. Brujah: out of control rage to the point of homicide against multiple people including the innocent who never said or did anything to offend the Brujah in question. Toreador: go into a trance-like obsessed state upon seeing something they find beautiful to the point of suicidal tendencies (stand there and let enemies kill you or stand and watch a beautiful sunrise, turning you to ash even if you wanted to go on "living"). Gangrel: Take on animal-like actions/behaviors and often lean toward anti-social tendencies.

Tremere: sociopathic experimentation (will kidnap, kill, etc. to test theories/learn more Thaumaturgy) and extreme tribalism to keep others oblivious to their own clan's dealings. Ventrue: absolutely obsessed with obtaining power, and an unnatural urge to have everyone agree with them, refusing to accept any less than that. One might say the Nosferatu condition is justified...but only until they raise Obfuscate to get Mask of 1000 faces and such. At that point, they should become more social, but they often do not. I'll mostly give them a pass, though.

Need I explain the Tzimisce, Followers of Set (Ministry), Ravnos, and so on as having inherent mental illness traits? The only difference between Malks and the rest of them is that Malks get the "label" of mental illness. Works for me. They're the beloved ones while all the others are just viewed as doing wicked acts when they adhere to their clans' traits.


Well said. As someone with a mental disorder, I don't feel portrayed in a bad light by the Malkavians in the game. To me,  their mental illness is more a twisted Supernatural version of real life mental illnesses. I can accept that
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 08:20:08 AM by fylimar »
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Offline Zeppeli

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #242 on: May 18, 2019, 08:57:11 AM »
What Malkavians have is not caused by chemical imbalance in the brain or even some trauma experienced during mortal life. It is supernatural in nature caused by unstoppable and uncontrollable current of information that is very real and out of context confusing and frustrating ones mind until it snaps in a way that a normal human cant even imagine. Getting offended by it is just dumb and apologizing for it is even more ridiculous. "We are going to do more research" is just idiotic statement how exactly are they going to research something that does not and can't exist in real world ?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 08:58:55 AM by Zeppeli »

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #243 on: May 18, 2019, 09:18:22 PM »
What Malkavians have is not caused by chemical imbalance in the brain or even some trauma experienced during mortal life. It is supernatural in nature caused by unstoppable and uncontrollable current of information that is very real and out of context confusing and frustrating ones mind until it snaps in a way that a normal human cant even imagine. Getting offended by it is just dumb and apologizing for it is even more ridiculous. "We are going to do more research" is just idiotic statement how exactly are they going to research something that does not and can't exist in real world ?

I agree with most of what you say til you get to the part where you criticize them for wanting to do more research.  Because regardless of the supernatural cause of the Malkavian's madness, it is still based on real world mental issues.  I don't think seeking to be more sensitive to that by learning more about it is necessarily a bad thing so long as they don't completely bjork the Malkies. 

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #244 on: May 18, 2019, 11:53:04 PM »
What Malkavians have is not caused by chemical imbalance in the brain or even some trauma experienced during mortal life. It is supernatural in nature caused by unstoppable and uncontrollable current of information that is very real and out of context confusing and frustrating ones mind until it snaps in a way that a normal human cant even imagine. Getting offended by it is just dumb and apologizing for it is even more ridiculous. "We are going to do more research" is just idiotic statement how exactly are they going to research something that does not and can't exist in real world ?

I agree with most of what you say til you get to the part where you criticize them for wanting to do more research.  Because regardless of the supernatural cause of the Malkavian's madness, it is still based on real world mental issues.  I don't think seeking to be more sensitive to that by learning more about it is necessarily a bad thing so long as they don't completely bjork the Malkies.

Yeah, I mean if they want to read tea leaves, meditate with Tibetan monks, do acupuncture, and huff paint to try and get inspiration and/or meaningful information, they can do whatever they hell the like. Like Zephyr is saying, the end product just needs to be great. I don't care how they get there, aside from murder, thievery, extortion, etc.

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #245 on: May 19, 2019, 03:37:16 AM »
But then we get into the argument of "How dare you have a black villain in your movie?!" "Why is a woman the evildoer?!" "This isn't the representation we deserve!" etc. Fiction will have people of all sorts portrayed in a bad light. Oh, and let's not forget about THIS asshole in the past week: https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/13/18617783/rage-2-impressions-characters-enemies-mutants

What ? Why would we get into that argument ? And what is wrong with that article ? So some guy writes an opinion piece about an issue that makes him feel uncomfortable and suddenly he is a bad person xD ?

To say that the mentally ill watch movies and enjoy video games as much as us sounds intrinsically false, since the number of sane versus insane people is too great a number. Sure, you might have a handful of very obsessed mentally ill folks to might consume more than the average person, but sheer population of the sane will easily overcome such outliers. Long story short, I am not seeing anyone mentally ill being butt-hurt about Malkavians. It's the sane people who throw shit-fits about all those other "social justice" topics that no one asked for.

So what ? Their opinions don't matter as much because they are a minority ?

It's very simple: we can't spread ignorance. When we describe mental illness as something terrifying or dangerous, then we make poor decisions when we interact with it in the real world. The malkavians, while fun to play and see, unfortunately spread a stereotype that people who are mentally ill are likely to murder you and cut you into little pieces (Grout's mansion), which is completely ludicrous. I better know about this stuff since I'm a psychologist.

Even Mitsoda himself understands this perfectly: https://rainbo.co.uk/article/194

My guess about the second power serving as a "distraction" is for use in combat or evading law enforcement. The average hired gun is going to be expecting a lone person matching your description out at night...not someone with a group of followers boldly strutting down the road. For some reason, I think of Altair mixing in with other hooded people in the first Assassin's Creed to avoid notice.

I guess ? Sounds stupid though, wouldn't people notice more a person who is clearly surrounded by a bunch of people in the middle of the night ?

Ugh, I might be going Brujah for this game.

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #246 on: May 19, 2019, 05:44:59 AM »
But then we get into the argument of "How dare you have a black villain in your movie?!" "Why is a woman the evildoer?!" "This isn't the representation we deserve!" etc. Fiction will have people of all sorts portrayed in a bad light. Oh, and let's not forget about THIS asshole in the past week: https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/13/18617783/rage-2-impressions-characters-enemies-mutants

What ? Why would we get into that argument ? And what is wrong with that article ? So some guy writes an opinion piece about an issue that makes him feel uncomfortable and suddenly he is a bad person xD ?

You were referring to people who can't handle one-sided, heavy amounts of political jokes about a real-world political figure as "snowflakes" in the other thread, so I find it odd that you would now defend this guy who got butt-hurt by somehow comparing himself with a slight cleft lip (I can't even see it in his photos) to huge mutants in the future who no longer act human and feature tons of mutations/deformities, some of the least of which is a cleft lip, and even then, it's hyper-mutated and nothing like a real cleft lip. Right there. That guy's your snowflake, man. =p

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To say that the mentally ill watch movies and enjoy video games as much as us sounds intrinsically false, since the number of sane versus insane people is too great a number. Sure, you might have a handful of very obsessed mentally ill folks to might consume more than the average person, but sheer population of the sane will easily overcome such outliers. Long story short, I am not seeing anyone mentally ill being butt-hurt about Malkavians. It's the sane people who throw shit-fits about all those other "social justice" topics that no one asked for.

So what ? Their opinions don't matter as much because they are a minority ?

Everything offends everyone. You will always find at least one person offended by something. You could not have any entertainment if only a tiny number of people griped and the joke/movie/game in question was "researched" to make it more "respectful." When we're talking about literally killing people, confiscation of property, corporal punishment, etc...those are situations where people's opinions matter and need addressing. This is entertainment. The devs need to make whatever the hell they feel like that is legal, and consumers will buy it or they won't. If they put material in it that makes it objectionable, then it will sell poorly and the devs will go out of business or at least (hopefully) walk away from the project learning the appropriate lesson about what NOT to do again.

Almost no one wants real world politics in this game, and almost no one is offended by Malkavians. The game will sell better without either of these things being capitalized on. If they cram too much political stuff into the game and make Malkavian player characters un-funny and uninteresting, this could be a massive detriment to sales. If this was Bloodlines 13, then yeah, sure, they can put politics in and lose a bunch of money and they'll survive and maybe make more. However, this is Bloodlines 2 after a 15-year hiatus, dude. They need to deliver a product that will not alienate the fanbase or new players if they want to profit and possibly make more WoD games in the future. People loved the Malks and want a similar experience with them. =/

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It's very simple: we can't spread ignorance. When we describe mental illness as something terrifying or dangerous, then we make poor decisions when we interact with it in the real world. The malkavians, while fun to play and see, unfortunately spread a stereotype that people who are mentally ill are likely to murder you and cut you into little pieces (Grout's mansion), which is completely ludicrous. I better know about this stuff since I'm a psychologist.

If you're a psychologist, then it amazes me that you think so lowly of human intelligence that you actually think players are stupid enough to believe that Grout's mansion illustrates what the mentally ill are actually like. You claim to be a psychologist. Do you have some scientific study results with sizable observed numbers of subjects which we can pore over, linking fictional stereotypes of the mentally ill to real-world harm of the mentally ill? Obviously, these would cite specific statistics. I normally don't like to be a dick and ask for proof, but you just made a qualification argument to give readers the impression that you are better-knowledgeable about this topic than other people involved in the discussion based on merit. Ergo, you have the burden of proof, and it's a reasonable request since you're a psychologist and everything.

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Even Mitsoda himself understands this perfectly: https://rainbo.co.uk/article/194

Brian Mitsoda: "We have to be very sensitive about how we handle things like mental illness and that was a concern for us and for Paradox, in how we can make a mature story but if we do anything, we do our homework and make sure that we are punching up and not punching down."

"Punching up" is some iffy rhetoric. What places someone as "up" can really vary. Until I see the game, I don't know whether he will make good judgment calls or simply "punch" his version of "up." I prefer a broad perspective of a type of character, whereas this "not punching down" business concerns me that all the Malkavians will be portrayed as morally superior than the other Kindred, much like avoiding making a black character be a villain in other media. I would like to see "good" Malks, "bad" Malks, in-between, etc. If Malkavians become "sacred cows" too precious to Mitsoda and friends to "roast" or show in even the slightest negative light, then that is to the detriment of the game.

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My guess about the second power serving as a "distraction" is for use in combat or evading law enforcement. The average hired gun is going to be expecting a lone person matching your description out at night...not someone with a group of followers boldly strutting down the road. For some reason, I think of Altair mixing in with other hooded people in the first Assassin's Creed to avoid notice.

I guess ? Sounds stupid though, wouldn't people notice more a person who is clearly surrounded by a bunch of people in the middle of the night ?

I'm not sure how they'll handle it, but my thoughts are that Hunters would expect someone alone instead of a big social group to be a vampire. I don't really like it, myself, but I'm hoping that it allows for easy feeding in public. At least we can use it as a social dialog option here. Based on the table top game, it's the best power when it comes to dialog options.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:52:14 AM by Wesp5 »

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #247 on: May 19, 2019, 04:02:23 PM »
You were referring to people who can't handle one-sided, heavy amounts of political jokes about a real-world political figure as "snowflakes" in the other thread, so I find it odd that you would now defend this guy who got butt-hurt by somehow comparing himself with a slight cleft lip (I can't even see it in his photos) to huge mutants in the future who no longer act human and feature tons of mutations/deformities, some of the least of which is a cleft lip, and even then, it's hyper-mutated and nothing like a real cleft lip. Right there. That guy's your snowflake, man. =p

But this guy actually had cleft palate and thus sees himself whenever he plays horror games and sees that a piece of his own self-concept is used as a prop for describing monsters and mutations. Did he insult the developers ? Did he sue them ? No, he just wrote something on the internet. Highly inocuous (sp) if you ask me.

Everything offends everyone. You will always find at least one person offended by something. You could not have any entertainment if only a tiny number of people griped and the joke/movie/game in question was "researched" to make it more "respectful." When we're talking about literally killing people, confiscation of property, corporal punishment, etc...those are situations where people's opinions matter and need addressing. This is entertainment. The devs need to make whatever the hell they feel like that is legal, and consumers will buy it or they won't. If they put material in it that makes it objectionable, then it will sell poorly and the devs will go out of business or at least (hopefully) walk away from the project learning the appropriate lesson about what NOT to do again.

Lots of great stuff to get at in this little paragraph, so I'll try to be succinct:

I understand your point, we can't have censorship and regulation on EVERYTHING because obviously we would not be able to fully enjoy the stories we love. But the whole point of these conversations is to DISCUSS what is it that we like and dislike or what exactly is right and isn't. Sometimes people accuse others of being racist and sexist... and they're wrong, but we only determine that by talking about and reasonably arguing for our points. The wrong and misguided thing to do here is simply deny these concerns and just sweep them under a rug. It's not fair to people who are minorities among the videogaming audience (like people with mental or personality disorders).

We usually forget we, gamers, were once a minority. We all chose to play videogames rather than join the football team; we were in the minority, but our opinions still mattered.

Almost no one wants real world politics in this game, and almost no one is offended by Malkavians. The game will sell better without either of these things being capitalized on. If they cram too much political stuff into the game and make Malkavian player characters un-funny and uninteresting, this could be a massive detriment to sales. If this was Bloodlines 13, then yeah, sure, they can put politics in and lose a bunch of money and they'll survive and maybe make more. However, this is Bloodlines 2 after a 15-year hiatus, dude. They need to deliver a product that will not alienate the fanbase or new players if they want to profit and possibly make more WoD games in the future. People loved the Malks and want a similar experience with them. =/

Let's give it a chance though. Mitsoda himself pushed this project on Paradox when the latter had no fucking idea they even wanted a Bloodlines game. So clearly, despite the "woke comments" he still wants to make a great game for people to enjoy.

If you're a psychologist, then it amazes me that you think so lowly of human intelligence that you actually think players are stupid enough to believe that Grout's mansion illustrates what the mentally ill are actually like. You claim to be a psychologist. Do you have some scientific study results with sizable observed numbers of subjects which we can pore over, linking fictional stereotypes of the mentally ill to real-world harm of the mentally ill? Obviously, these would cite specific statistics. I normally don't like to be a dick and ask for proof, but you just made a qualification argument to give readers the impression that you are better-knowledgeable about this topic than other people involved in the discussion based on merit. Ergo, you have the burden of proof, and it's a reasonable request since you're a psychologist and everything.

It's not a matter of intelligence. Profoundly enlightened people can be very prejudiced about other people, as many guide their decisions solely on the stereotypes they've formed about people and things they know little about. This is a matter of ignorance, not about intelligence.

I apologize if I came out as "I know more than you", that was not the intent. Also, here's a bit of stuff to read over, I can gladly find more if this doesn't satisfy:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10683817.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7299322_Media_Portrayal_of_Mental_Illness_and_Its_Treatments_What_Effect_Does_It_Have_on_People_with_Mental_Illness

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2e5b/9285fa61b75efcb46b5da9fee8f64a04f722.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285370062_Law_Disorder_The_Portrayal_of_Mental_Illness_in_US_Crime_Dramas

If you can't read some of these, use scihub: https://sci-hub.tw/

I'm not sure how they'll handle it, but my thoughts are that Hunters would expect someone alone instead of a big social group to be a vampire. I don't really like it, myself, but I'm hoping that it allows for easy feeding in public. At least we can use it as a social dialog option here. Based on the table top game, it's the best power when it comes to dialog options.

That's good to hear if helps out with dialogue options.

So far, if I had to speculate, I think it might work as a way to make an "impromptu party" for your character. You presence three NPC's and then you can order each around to do something different.

NOW THAT would tingle my bits, as Flynn would say !

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #248 on: May 19, 2019, 05:52:50 PM »
You were referring to people who can't handle one-sided, heavy amounts of political jokes about a real-world political figure as "snowflakes" in the other thread, so I find it odd that you would now defend this guy who got butt-hurt by somehow comparing himself with a slight cleft lip (I can't even see it in his photos) to huge mutants in the future who no longer act human and feature tons of mutations/deformities, some of the least of which is a cleft lip, and even then, it's hyper-mutated and nothing like a real cleft lip. Right there. That guy's your snowflake, man. =p

But this guy actually had cleft palate and thus sees himself whenever he plays horror games and sees that a piece of his own self-concept is used as a prop for describing monsters and mutations. Did he insult the developers ? Did he sue them ? No, he just wrote something on the internet. Highly inocuous (sp) if you ask me.

He's full of shit is what he is. Here's his alleged disfigurement: https://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=chris_plante
And here's the thing he says makes him personally "feel like garbage" because of his own birth defect:


This man is a hack.

Everything offends everyone. You will always find at least one person offended by something. You could not have any entertainment if only a tiny number of people griped and the joke/movie/game in question was "researched" to make it more "respectful." When we're talking about literally killing people, confiscation of property, corporal punishment, etc...those are situations where people's opinions matter and need addressing. This is entertainment. The devs need to make whatever the hell they feel like that is legal, and consumers will buy it or they won't. If they put material in it that makes it objectionable, then it will sell poorly and the devs will go out of business or at least (hopefully) walk away from the project learning the appropriate lesson about what NOT to do again.

Quote
Lots of great stuff to get at in this little paragraph, so I'll try to be succinct:

I understand your point, we can't have censorship and regulation on EVERYTHING because obviously we would not be able to fully enjoy the stories we love. But the whole point of these conversations is to DISCUSS what is it that we like and dislike or what exactly is right and isn't. Sometimes people accuse others of being racist and sexist... and they're wrong, but we only determine that by talking about and reasonably arguing for our points. The wrong and misguided thing to do here is simply deny these concerns and just sweep them under a rug. It's not fair to people who are minorities among the videogaming audience (like people with mental or personality disorders).

We usually forget we, gamers, were once a minority. We all chose to play videogames rather than join the football team; we were in the minority, but our opinions still mattered.

Ehhh except the football team was revered all through school while gamers were unpopular. Our opinions sure didn't matter to the faculty and I was never celebrated for anything gaming-related, whether it was based around concept, accomplishment, or general knowledge, etc. Football, on the other hand, was cherished. Why? Because the majority of parents, teachers, and parents were interested in it. Games weren't as interesting. Although I would have preferred to have been fawned over for my sexy gamer nerdiness in school, that doesn't mean that the faculty, parents, and other students should all be forced to give me some credit as a "minority."

Until someone is attempting to unlawfully kill me, incarcerate me, and other such civil rights violations, the majority can do as it wills, and it should. People shouldn't have to bend the knee to my interests.

Quote
Almost no one wants real world politics in this game, and almost no one is offended by Malkavians. The game will sell better without either of these things being capitalized on. If they cram too much political stuff into the game and make Malkavian player characters un-funny and uninteresting, this could be a massive detriment to sales. If this was Bloodlines 13, then yeah, sure, they can put politics in and lose a bunch of money and they'll survive and maybe make more. However, this is Bloodlines 2 after a 15-year hiatus, dude. They need to deliver a product that will not alienate the fanbase or new players if they want to profit and possibly make more WoD games in the future. People loved the Malks and want a similar experience with them. =/

Let's give it a chance though. Mitsoda himself pushed this project on Paradox when the latter had no fucking idea they even wanted a Bloodlines game. So clearly, despite the "woke comments" he still wants to make a great game for people to enjoy.

And I sure hope he does. May Outstar's shining rays of hope guide me through these most foul times of doubt and worry.

Quote
If you're a psychologist, then it amazes me that you think so lowly of human intelligence that you actually think players are stupid enough to believe that Grout's mansion illustrates what the mentally ill are actually like. You claim to be a psychologist. Do you have some scientific study results with sizable observed numbers of subjects which we can pore over, linking fictional stereotypes of the mentally ill to real-world harm of the mentally ill? Obviously, these would cite specific statistics. I normally don't like to be a dick and ask for proof, but you just made a qualification argument to give readers the impression that you are better-knowledgeable about this topic than other people involved in the discussion based on merit. Ergo, you have the burden of proof, and it's a reasonable request since you're a psychologist and everything.

It's not a matter of intelligence. Profoundly enlightened people can be very prejudiced about other people, as many guide their decisions solely on the stereotypes they've formed about people and things they know little about. This is a matter of ignorance, not about intelligence.

I apologize if I came out as "I know more than you", that was not the intent. Also, here's a bit of stuff to read over, I can gladly find more if this doesn't satisfy:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10683817.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7299322_Media_Portrayal_of_Mental_Illness_and_Its_Treatments_What_Effect_Does_It_Have_on_People_with_Mental_Illness

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2e5b/9285fa61b75efcb46b5da9fee8f64a04f722.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285370062_Law_Disorder_The_Portrayal_of_Mental_Illness_in_US_Crime_Dramas

If you can't read some of these, use scihub: https://sci-hub.tw/

Where did they survey those people? California? O_o  If not, then I'm surprised to learn that there are so many idiots in the world that they will genuinely use television as perceived source of legitimate information about the "standard mentally ill person." Even more worrying, however, for me, is that these findings support one common denominator beyond mental illness: being a single white male, who often isn't a social beacon to the world, will give people reason to heavily suspect that my ilk are mentally ill. O_O '  Heck, same thing with pedophiles. How many non-white, non-single, non-male pedophiles do you see on TV? In real life, I see a kid, I think to myself "Time to GTFO of here" because I don't want to look at a kid, talk to a kid, or be within 50 meters of a kid at any given moment if I can help it because I don't need that shit in my life of people falsely accusing me of things.

With all the #MeToo shit, womanfolk are reaching those levels of need-to-avoid for the single white male. I just wanna pay the bills, play my games, and be left the hell alone by people who feel like ruining me.

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I'm not sure how they'll handle it, but my thoughts are that Hunters would expect someone alone instead of a big social group to be a vampire. I don't really like it, myself, but I'm hoping that it allows for easy feeding in public. At least we can use it as a social dialog option here. Based on the table top game, it's the best power when it comes to dialog options.

That's good to hear if helps out with dialogue options.

So far, if I had to speculate, I think it might work as a way to make an "impromptu party" for your character. You presence three NPC's and then you can order each around to do something different.

NOW THAT would tingle my bits, as Flynn would say !

Oh my gosh...you just made me envision getting like four club girls to go out and enter a brawl with some gang members, having Buffy, Britni, Hillary, and Angelique to all start trying to whoop dudes' asses. That would be awesome. I doubt what I'm imagining is how it will work, though. The Bloodlines 2 site states: "• • • Entrance (Blood Cost: 2), the second active power, forms a group of admirers around the vampire. For an extended period, these hangers-on will follow wherever the object of their adulation may go, distracting nearby enemies along the way. The • • • • and • • • • • slots upgrade Entrance."

Weird.

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #249 on: May 20, 2019, 12:23:32 AM »
Fuck... this is a lot. Once again I'll try to be super succinct.

He's full of shit is what he is. Here's his alleged disfigurement: https://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=chris_plante

Dude... he obviously doesn't look disfigured because he got corrective surgery xD !

Although I would have preferred to have been fawned over for my sexy gamer nerdiness in school, that doesn't mean that the faculty, parents, and other students should all be forced to give me some credit as a "minority."

I don't think it's such a terrible thing to LISTEN to the opinions of others. This is really what everything boils down to. People with mental illnesses, non-binary genders, trans, feminists and countless other groups now have a voice and are using it. I can hardly see what's wrong about that.

Oh my gosh...you just made me envision getting like four club girls to go out and enter a brawl with some gang members, having Buffy, Britni, Hillary, and Angelique to all start trying to whoop dudes' asses. That would be awesome. I doubt what I'm imagining is how it will work, though. The Bloodlines 2 site states: "• • • Entrance (Blood Cost: 2), the second active power, forms a group of admirers around the vampire. For an extended period, these hangers-on will follow wherever the object of their adulation may go, distracting nearby enemies along the way. The • • • • and • • • • • slots upgrade Entrance."

I'll wait for a gameplay demo, the description doesn't seem to be that clear about what the ability really does.

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #250 on: May 20, 2019, 01:15:25 AM »
Fuck... this is a lot. Once again I'll try to be super succinct.

He's full of shit is what he is. Here's his alleged disfigurement: https://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=chris_plante

Dude... he obviously doesn't look disfigured because he got corrective surgery xD !

So what reasonable justification does he have for "feeling like garbage?" His disfigurement is the whole point of the article and it doesn't affect him. He proceeds to make multiple accusations of insensitivity toward the developers of the game based on this, and depending on public reception, alleging insufficient wokeness can damage a game's sales. Just look at the comments under the article in which everyone who has commented has been favorable to his points, and at least one person has decided to pass completely on the game using this article as the straw that broke the camel's back.

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Although I would have preferred to have been fawned over for my sexy gamer nerdiness in school, that doesn't mean that the faculty, parents, and other students should all be forced to give me some credit as a "minority."

I don't think it's such a terrible thing to LISTEN to the opinions of others. This is really what everything boils down to. People with mental illnesses, non-binary genders, trans, feminists and countless other groups now have a voice and are using it. I can hardly see what's wrong about that.

Listening to people is not the same thing as agreeing with them or doing their bidding, though. I'm concerned with the actions people take as a result of listening to people. Rage has mutants. It was impossible to please the guy who wrote this article without changing the mutant designs. Changing the mutant designs could have offended someone else. We can't act on the whining of a minority of people who are not genuinely having their human rights violated (incarceration, killing, etc.).

People are going to whine about everything, as evidenced by the article. And the more we give in, the more people will whine for more. "Give an inch, lose a mile." Eventually, we won't be able to kill/destroy anything in games. People will bitch about robot rights...so no robots. People will bitch about there being too many women getting killed, or black people getting killed, so no more of them getting killed.

Let this charade carry on long enough, and only Nazis, extraterrestrials, and "cis straight white males" will be viable targets to kill in games or have portraying the villains. If people are reacting like this to video games, how in the hell can they function in real life?

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #251 on: May 20, 2019, 05:18:37 AM »
There's a huge difference to "mentally ill" as opposed to "insane" which is an extreme.   Grout's subjects were insane and, yes, the insane are capable of anything by definition.  People who are mentally ill (I am one as I have severe depression) are not offended by depictions of extremes.  Everything in BL1 was depicted as an extreme from the LA atmosphere to each of the clans and exaggerated bodies.  It made the game more interesting.  It depicts the world of darkness, not the real world.

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #252 on: May 20, 2019, 05:29:12 AM »
There's a huge difference to "mentally ill" as opposed to "insane" which is an extreme.   Grout's subjects were insane and, yes, the insane are capable of anything by definition.  People who are mentally ill (I am one as I have severe depression) are not offended by depictions of extremes.  Everything in BL1 was depicted as an extreme from the LA atmosphere to each of the clans and exaggerated bodies.  It made the game more interesting.  It depicts the world of darkness, not the real world.

"Insane" is not a clinical term, it's an unprecise blanket term for all psychological and psychiatric illnesses. No serious mental health professional would describe anyone as "insane". As for your own perspective, I believe it's perfectly fine. Anyone can very well not feel offended by the depiction of malkavians in BL1.

That doesn't mean that others are not allowed the prerogative to feel hurt or offended by the same content. And while I agree that the depictions in Grout's mansion and on malkavian behavior were interesting, they were still a bit disturbing and stereotypical of what people think a mental illness actually is.

Offline fylimar

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #253 on: May 20, 2019, 09:10:21 AM »
But we are now three people with mental illnesses, who said, that they are not offended by the Malkavians, so maybe it really isn't a big deal. And someone pointed out, that the Malkavian madness is not like human mental illness, which makes sense imo.

And I think, you can and should voice your opinion, but you are not entitled to have a game changed (to stay with that example). So I find it ok, that the guy with the cleft said, he is not ok with those mutants, but he has to accept, if the game company won't change it just because of him.
And I must say, to me it often seems, that some people get publicly offended in social networks or YouTube channels to have their five minutes of fame. And there is a lot of hysteria and false panic around. I sometimes wish, people would be a bit more chilled online.
“They can keep their heaven. When I die, I’d sooner go to Middle Earth.” ― George R.R. Martin

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
― Doctor Who

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Playable Clans
« Reply #254 on: May 21, 2019, 12:39:40 AM »
But we are now three people with mental illnesses, who said, that they are not offended by the Malkavians, so maybe it really isn't a big deal. And someone pointed out, that the Malkavian madness is not like human mental illness, which makes sense imo.

But it's supposed to be a representation of decaying mental health. It's not a curse or a hex somebody puts on those vampires, their blood carries something that negatively affects their minds and their behavior, so it's supposed to represent people that have issues in those regards.

I think it's understandable to resist these opinions because we all like the game and we don't want to criticize it that often. It's obviously uncomfortable to discuss this topic, but it exists and it affects other people as well. A lot of you might criticize or resist this, but one day any of us might hear someone say "You know, sometimes I hear voices" and think "Oh lord this is guy will put a knife into my chest" when in reality we should think "This person is probably suffering a psychotic break. I should get him professional help". This is precisely the issue many of us are trying to fight; I myself fight an uphill battle whenever I ask people to go to a therapy because people think I am accusing them "of being crazy", when it's actually part of my job description to detect and report whenever somebody might be ill; unfortunately I can't help people a lot of times because prejudices and stereotypes get in the way.

Does all of that mean Malkavians should be discarded from BL2 ? Not at all. but I'd be very careful (as Brian Mitsoda already is) if I wanted to represent them as people with mental health issues.

And I think, you can and should voice your opinion, but you are not entitled to have a game changed (to stay with that example). So I find it ok, that the guy with the cleft said, he is not ok with those mutants, but he has to accept, if the game company won't change it just because of him. And I must say, to me it often seems, that some people get publicly offended in social networks or YouTube channels to have their five minutes of fame. And there is a lot of hysteria and false panic around. I sometimes wish, people would be a bit more chilled online.

I don't think any person claims "games should be changed", but we all have the right to not buy something, to encourage others not to buy something or to just flat-out say it sucks when it's being mean. The guy in the article was perfectly respectful and assertive about the topic he described. As far as I can remember he made no calls for boycott or censorship, he merely pointed out a glaring flaw from the art department which should actually make us think about how we might not be as considerate with other people that have suffered cleft palate, to mention just one issue.

 

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