Author Topic: IT FINALLY HAPPENED  (Read 4213 times)

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #120 on: April 21, 2019, 10:44:58 PM »

There would be four problems with importing our character from the first game:


Makes sense, especially the 3.
I don't want to think everything we've done in VTMB was just to enjoy a story. If they merge my previous char to the story somehow that would be great. Otherwise what's the difference of playing an RPG from reading a book. Its an industry i understand so what i want doesn't matter as much as what would sell more. Or would it be not named Bloodlines 2 and totally different and unrelated story, that's ok.

If you can't control your character from Bloodlines 1, it would be pretty annoying (in my opinion) to have that character make an appearance and start making decisions in Bloodlines 2 that you wouldn't have made in control of that character, though...

As for the difference between reading a book and playing an RPG, not getting to play the same character in a sequel does not merit that question being asked. You know as well as I do that you can't indulge in battles you have direct control over (with your character as an avatar, of course) in the game, you don't get to see the faces and motions of the other characters, you don't get the music, you don't get the voice acting, etc. I think you may have fair complaints to make, but the book vs RPG complaint is a losing battle of an argument. =p

Offline marex

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #121 on: April 21, 2019, 11:10:02 PM »

the book vs RPG complaint is a losing battle of an argument. =p

Its not like i've put lots of thought into this but i know my RPGs. You just read stuff while reading a book, in RPGs you can change the story, that's the point isn't it? Then at the sequel you are told, "you toiled like a noob and wrongly invested in the story, nothing what you chose effects anything in the world". Then give me the book instead of illusion of choice, should i play RPGs so i could simulate my fantasy? This doesn't make sense to me. I mean its nice when you play the game but a turn off for a sequel even if its the best story ever. See how Dawn of War games died out with the worst design choice ever for the third to constantly switch between characters and factions, it constantly grated on people's nerves. I gave an example from Warhammer because their lore is also kinda distinct and rich like Wod.

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #122 on: April 21, 2019, 11:28:26 PM »
Are you saying that if Bloodlines 2 doesn't do exactly what you want, you would rather Bloodlines 1 have been a book instead? That's a "ruined my childhood" sort of silly "retroactive" argument. Just because I think the new Star Wars movies suck doesn't mean I think the original trilogy should've just been books I could ignore instead of becoming movies, etc.

How in the world would you play as that character again and have a "game" to play? He/she has to be even more powerful than at the end of the last game, since 15 years have passed, and he/she was already powerful enough to take on a Sabbat leader and a very old Camarilla Sheriff. What are you going to do? Fight Antediluvians solo? Tear Caine's head off with one hand? =/

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Los+Angeles,+California/Seattle,+Washington/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x80c2c75ddc27da13:0xe22fdf6f254608f4!1m2!1m1!1s0x5490102c93e83355:0x102565466944d59a!3e0?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjgoI-NmuLhAhWiMX0KHQ7ADn0Q-A8wAHoECAoQCw

Things that happened 1,135 miles away fifteen years ago are reasonable to not expect them to "affect things in the world." The devs already said stuff from Bloodlines 1 will be coming up and relevant here, but you're putting a lot of demands on this game that are impossible to meet based on Bloodlines 1's conclusion.

Or are you saying "Bloodlines 2 shouldn't exist" because you don't play as the same character? I understand feeling attached to your character, but I believe the important reasoning behind why it is "Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines 2" instead of "Vampire the Masquerade Seattle Boogaloo" because it DOES carry some of the events over from Bloodlines 1, but even MORE importantly, it is to let the public know that this game is intended to be like the first game in terms of the mood, voice acting, music, writing, the premise of the game, etc. There are other reasons as well, but it's reasonable to call it Bloodlines 2 even if you don't play as the same guy/gal.

Offline marex

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #123 on: April 21, 2019, 11:43:00 PM »
Are you saying that if Bloodlines 2 doesn't do exactly what you want, you would rather Bloodlines 1 have been a book instead?

No. This doesn't make sense. RPG from 15 years ago can't turn into a book. So it doesn't matter what i want, even if i did wanted it, which i don't nor did i say anything of the sort.
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That's a "ruined my childhood" sort of silly "retroactive" argument. Just because I think the new Star Wars movies suck doesn't mean I think the original trilogy should've just been books I could ignore instead of becoming movies, etc. 
Huh? Take a chill pill. Read and think if you want to have discussion otherwise i'll stop replying.

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How in the world would you play as that character again and have a "game" to play? He/she has to be even more powerful than at the end of the last game, since 15 years have passed, and he/she was already powerful enough to take on a Sabbat leader and a very old Camarilla Sheriff. What are you going to do? Fight Antediluvians solo? Tear Caine's head off with one hand? =/
You are kinda right on this, i've already said this though.

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Things that happened 1,135 miles away fifteen years ago are reasonable to not expect them to "affect things in the world." The devs already said stuff from Bloodlines 1 will be coming up and relevant here, but you're putting a lot of demands on this game that are impossible to meet based on Bloodlines 1's conclusion.
This doesn't make much sense. You said he was super powerful so he/she could reasonably effect the world easily even from the other end of the universe if need be. Stuff from bloodlines is very nice, i'm not asking for drastic stuff or anyone to make decisions, just mentions and perhaps more if possible.
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Or are you saying "Bloodlines 2 shouldn't exist" because you don't play as the same character? I understand feeling attached to your character, but I believe the important reasoning behind why it is "Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines 2" instead of "Vampire the Masquerade Seattle Boogaloo" because it DOES carry some of the events over from Bloodlines 1, but even MORE importantly, it is to let the public know that this game is intended to be like the first game in terms of the mood, voice acting, music, writing, the premise of the game, etc. There are other reasons as well, but it's reasonable to call it Bloodlines 2 even if you don't play as the same guy/gal.
Of course, that's what i agreed before, i don't like to repeat myself. Also let public know my ass. Pay proper respect or you are just on it to make money.

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2019, 12:02:40 AM »
One thing most RPG sequels have is that the hero somehow becomes weak.  The BL1 character was way too strong for such a short time but that's how most work.  This means the hero cannot be at the same level at start and it sounds like their method is to somehow change the hero into a thin blood (how could a thin blood have done all that in LA?) or, more likely, start with a new hero.  If the same character is not carried on, is it really a sequel?  I know that in some games, the hero has changed but that is usually because the company that developed the game went bankrupt and someone else got the rights and, usually, the old fans reject it (like the since renamed Gothic IV).  Sound familiar?  Often new teams come up with a game sold as a sequel for marketing reasons which is in reality a new game.  In addition, there is no White Wolf holding veto power on what is in the game.  All I'm saying is, don't expect a lot of similarity.   It might be a fine game on it's own and I know most people will compare it to BL1 but they really shouldn't.  I think it'll be as much different as BL1 was from Redemption. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 12:04:32 AM by Nanaloma »

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2019, 01:12:40 AM »
No. This doesn't make sense. RPG from 15 years ago can't turn into a book. So it doesn't matter what i want, even if i did wanted it, which i don't nor did i say anything of the sort.

Which is why I started by asking "Are you..." because I needed clarification on your stance. Also, I did not say that it could turn into a book. I asked you if you would have rather it been a book instead. It's a past tense hypothetical in hopes of gleaning your preferences for clarification.

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Huh? Take a chill pill. Read and think if you want to have discussion otherwise i'll stop replying.

I am reading and thinking. It's why I was asking you for clarification on your previously unclarified remarks. It's also why I presented a hypothetical follow-up for if what I asked you turned out to be your stance, and it was specified as not declaring your opinion but effectively being "boolean" in nature i.e. dependent upon your answer as to whether the follow-up applied or not.

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This doesn't make much sense. You said he was super powerful so he/she could reasonably effect the world easily even from the other end of the universe if need be. Stuff from bloodlines is very nice, i'm not asking for drastic stuff or anyone to make decisions, just mentions and perhaps more if possible.

If the character is so influential and effective in the world, the Bloodlines 1 protagonist would likely meet his/her final death at the hands of a bunch of back-stabbing Kindred worried about his/her power. Unless the protagonist becomes a Prince, Primogen, Sheriff, or very prominent Anarch Baron, etc., the protagonist would end up the target of many. Although, by him/herself, sure, the protagonist as a super badass, but if Kindred want you dead and actually take the time to formulate a good plan, you're toast. For example, figure out where your haven is, then send an e-mail to the Second Inquisition to let them know.  By the next sunrise, a dozen flak jacket-armored federal employees, contractors, or Hunters bust down your door and drag you out into the sun or slice your head off. Of course, you're in torpor during the day, so you can't react. It's a coward's killing, but it is what it is.

But hey, maybe they'll go the Prince/Primogen/Sheriff/Baron route? I'm not sure how, though. In Knights of the Old Republic 2, for example, I seem to recall getting to answer some questions that let you basically decide things about the protagonist of KotOR 1, such as "Well, from what I heard about <name>, he/she blah blah blah." However, that wouldn't make sense in Bloodlines 2 because a freshly embraced Kindred wouldn't be able to claim to have heard rumors to allow you to effectively meta-game to dictate "who" the first game's protagonist was.

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Of course, that's what i agreed before, i don't like to repeat myself. Also let public know my ass. Pay proper respect or you are just on it to make money.

There would be no reason for an entire studio of people to make the game if they weren't going to get paid. People should be paid for their work. It takes too much time for them to do this in such a short timespan for them to not get paid for it. I'm not claiming that you think they should do it for free, but it must be made clear that even if they called it something completely different, they're still "on it to make money."

Could they call it something else? Sure! However, the lead writer of the first game is writing it, it takes place later in time after the first game, events from the first game will come up again, and characters from the first game will return. It's also being made in the same style as the first game, as opposed to something like VtM Redemption, or something entirely different. Why in the world wouldn't you call it Bloodlines 2?


Quote from: Nanaloma
"If the same character is not carried on, is it really a sequel?...I think it'll be as much different as BL1 was from Redemption."

The Lord of the Rings would qualify as a sequel to The Hobbit, even if Bilbo never made an appearance, so yes, yes it is. And why would you ever think it would be as different as Bloodlines 1 and Redemption were, compared to one another? The interviews and the cinematic trailer for Bloodlines 2 all point to a premise of "this is supposed to feel just like Bloodlines but in Seattle and with better combat."

Offline Wesp5

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2019, 08:17:41 AM »
Before this escalates here, I think the main problem is that they actually called it "Bloodlines 2" and not something else. This was of course done to increase the market recognition and to imply that this game will be very similar in atmosphere and gameplay to the classic! Any other name would have worked too in my opinion, but they wanted to be on the save side. Which on the other hand raises high expectations! It never had anything to do with this being a direct sequel with the same character as there are 15 years, a huge distance and different endings between the two games. And "Bloodlines" itself has no connection to the character, compared to the "Redemption" that Christof seeks in the first game. "Bloodlines" could just mean we see some of those like in the first game...

Offline marex

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2019, 09:47:05 AM »

If the character is so influential and effective in the world, the Bloodlines 1 protagonist would likely meet his/her final death at the hands of a bunch of back-stabbing Kindred worried about his/her power. 
Perhaps, there are possibilities.
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But hey, maybe they'll go the Prince/Primogen/Sheriff/Baron route?
This is great, exactly what i'm asking for, i hope they do it or similarly awesome.
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I'm not sure how, though. In Knights of the Old Republic 2, for example, I seem to recall getting to answer some questions that let you basically decide things about the protagonist of KotOR 1, such as "Well, from what I heard about <name>, he/she blah blah blah." However, that wouldn't make sense in Bloodlines 2 because a freshly embraced Kindred wouldn't be able to claim to have heard rumors to allow you to effectively meta-game to dictate "who" the first game's protagonist was.
Anything could make sense in an RPG setting, there are examples. Perhaps it wouldn't be cost efficient, that's another story.
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There would be no reason for an entire studio of people to make the game if they weren't going to get paid. People should be paid for their work. It takes too much time for them to do this in such a short timespan for them to not get paid for it. I'm not claiming that you think they should do it for free, but it must be made clear that even if they called it something completely different, they're still "on it to make money."
I think the more they do it for fun, themselves, the better the game is. Strangleholding & strongarming players doesn't seem to work well for single players RPGs anymore even with publishers with infinite power like EA. Vampyr could just carefully improve and balance constant spawns and voila, nooo they couldn't care less about player experience or i don't know they act like it. On the other hand paradox has nice track record. The studio is the wildcard.

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Could they call it something else? Sure! However, the lead writer of the first game is writing it, it takes place later in time after the first game, events from the first game will come up again, and characters from the first game will return. It's also being made in the same style as the first game, as opposed to something like VtM Redemption, or something entirely different. Why in the world wouldn't you call it Bloodlines 2?

I appreciate this, and i appreciate his gloves :). Still... this isn't a JRPG, have some care of what you name what before you go full on weird. Sure if its meant to be more of a tabletop adventure style with different unrelated stories, fine. Its somewhat more acceptable since its been 15 years.


Offline marex

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2019, 09:50:52 AM »
Before this escalates here
Sorry for hijacking.

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"Redemption" that Christof seeks in the first game. "Bloodlines" could just mean we see some of those like in the first game...
Redemption was a difficult RPG to trudge but Christof waking up in London and the sanctuary immersion was awesome.

Offline Ghanima_Atreides

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2019, 10:08:36 AM »
Before this escalates here, I think the main problem is that they actually called it "Bloodlines 2" and not something else. This was of course done to increase the market recognition and to imply that this game will be very similar in atmosphere and gameplay to the classic! Any other name would have worked too in my opinion, but they wanted to be on the save side.

I don't see this as a problem, nor is it unprecedented. Take for example the Fallout and Elder Scrolls series; you have Fallout 1, 2, 3,4 and Elder Scrolls I to V (among others). With the exception of Fallout 1 and 2, none of the sequels are a direct continuation of events in the previous game; the protagonists are also different and previous protagonists don't show up again except, occasionally, as very subtle references (like a quest in Skyrim hinting that Oblivion's protagonist has become an inter-dimensional deity).  The lore of course grows with each game in the series, there are references to past events and recurring characters, but each game is pretty self-contained. I am completely OK with Bloodlines 2 following the same pattern.

In fact, I don't see how they could possibly include the Bloodlines 1 protagonist outside a vague reference or easter egg, since the game has several endings and they don't survive in all of them. It would mean making one of them officially canon. Likewise, while it's cool to imagine our characters have gone on to become Primogen or other high ranking vampires, I'd rather not have the game decide that for all of mine; I prefer the freedom to imagine different paths for them, even if they mean obscurity or even Final Death.

That's my take on it anyway.

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Offline Barabbah

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2019, 09:25:54 PM »
In fact, I don't see how they could possibly include the Bloodlines 1 protagonist outside a vague reference or easter egg, since the game has several endings and they don't survive in all of them. It would mean making one of them officially canon. Likewise, while it's cool to imagine our characters have gone on to become Primogen or other high ranking vampires, I'd rather not have the game decide that for all of mine; I prefer the freedom to imagine different paths for them, even if they mean obscurity or even Final Death.

That's my take on it anyway.

Avellone had the same dilemma on KotOR 2 and his solution to let the player make the recap of the endings in the previous game through dialogue choices was pure genius. It will be really difficult he won't found a similar cunning approach (if they want and/or need to add the protagonist of the first game).
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Offline Azrael

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2019, 09:44:25 PM »

If you can't control your character from Bloodlines 1, it would be pretty annoying (in my opinion) to have that character make an appearance and start making decisions in Bloodlines 2 that you wouldn't have made in control of that character, though...


Fucking Dragon Age: Inquisition.
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Offline Barabbah

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2019, 09:57:25 PM »

If you can't control your character from Bloodlines 1, it would be pretty annoying (in my opinion) to have that character make an appearance and start making decisions in Bloodlines 2 that you wouldn't have made in control of that character, though...


Fucking Dragon Age: Inquisition.

That actually happened?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Offline Azrael

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2019, 10:28:16 PM »

If you can't control your character from Bloodlines 1, it would be pretty annoying (in my opinion) to have that character make an appearance and start making decisions in Bloodlines 2 that you wouldn't have made in control of that character, though...


Fucking Dragon Age: Inquisition.

That actually happened?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

SPOILERS FOR DA:I BELOW IF ANYONE GIVES A SHIT:

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Yes Hawke shows up in the second act. Instead of a KOTOR2 style dialogue check on the events of DA2, you get this 'tapestry' thing on the DA:I website where you can pick all the decisions you made in DA:0 DA2 and all the DLCs, so he LOOKS like your DA2 character, but he's useless, you have no option to control him (not a party member just a tagalong NPC in a couple quests) and then you have to decide whether or not to let him DIE IN THE FADE because REASONS later on.

I killed him. He was hogging my new character's spotlight.
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Offline DarkProphet

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Re: IT FINALLY HAPPENED
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2019, 01:37:52 AM »
I agree with pretty much everything else that's been said here since my last post. And yeah, marex, nice JRPG remark. While I can abide by something like the Tales series (Tales of Berseria, Tales of Symphonia, etc.) all being obviously games in a series that generally aren't connected, the Final Fantasy series' numbering system is just silly. When you have to say FFX-2 and FFXIII-2, etc., that's absurd. Not only that, but like 90% or so of the FF games take place in entirely different universes or at least planets that never connect except via noncanonical fighting games and other madness.

Also, yes, when you reach the modern nights in Redemption, it is amaaaazing. <3  I really wish that instead of the way that game turned out, they had taken the same story and EITHER gone full-on "Diablo" (hacker/slasher combat and loot done well), OR go fully mid/late-90s western RPG to ditch the random loot, cut the number of Cainites you encounter down to like 30%, restrict the player's Disciplines to that of Brujah and clans Christof reasonably would have learned from, and have the combat be more about using the right abilities for the job, solving quests, dialog options, etc.

I would love either of those two games. Instead, we got an amazing story in a mega-flawed game that is hindered by its middling spot in between each of the two sort of genres.

Azrael, I was specifically thinking of Dragon Age Inquisition when I typed what you responded to. XD  The Hawke thing was unforgivable in my opinion. I quit the game shortly thereafter and that wasn't even why. It was just part of the icing on the cake of what turned me off in that game.
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