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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 2 => Bloodlines 2 General discussion => Topic started by: Gurkhal on April 11, 2019, 08:58:52 PM

Title: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Gurkhal on April 11, 2019, 08:58:52 PM
I've spent some time now on some various communities and reading a bit about VtMB2 and most importantly the fan reactions and expecations to it. And from that I've come to think that the game will be a big failure in the end.

I think the game itself will be pretty good and worthwhile to play as a game, but I think it will not measure up to Bloodlines and may fail in the end in relation to what's expected from the invested effort and money into the game.

The reason I think this is that I think it can never live up to the Bloodline hype, that the majority of the, in my opinion, extremely conservative fan base of VtM will not accept the V5 setting. And that given how, at least that's what I've heard but I could be wrong here, that its meant to be a political game, I think the current political climate might be that it draws flak in a way similar to V5 or becomes so partisan, to avoid this, that it will essentially be preaching to the faithful and with little new or interesting to say, while driving away those not adhering to the political message of the game. And this could also be true even if the game isn't supposed to be political.

I made this thread to see if there are others who thinks the same or, if I've got it all wrong with this?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Aurelian on April 11, 2019, 09:17:47 PM
If I may offer you one small piece of advice.

Bloodlines 2, no matter how the game turns out to be in the end, will never be the original Bloodlines, and that is okay. Bloodlines is a cult classic game. A game which holds emotional significance for many of us. Do not measure Bloodlines 2 with the original, measure Bloodlines 2 as its own game.

Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Gurkhal on April 11, 2019, 09:58:51 PM
If I may offer you one small piece of advice.

Bloodlines 2, no matter how the game turns out to be in the end, will never be the original Bloodlines, and that is okay. Bloodlines is a cult classic game. A game which holds emotional significance for many of us. Do not measure Bloodlines 2 with the original, measure Bloodlines 2 as its own game.

I agree entirely. But I do hope that more than you and me will see it this way. And that the difference between setting in the different versions of VtM will not lead people to reject the game as "not being VtM".
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 12, 2019, 02:42:27 AM
I believe pre-orders are exceedingly high.  I think your assessment was basically correct though.  A lot of the people who pre-ordered will be disappointed because they WILL compare it to BL1, the word gets out, and sales fall flat.  With the current atmosphere, NO politics whatsoever is the way to go and it has been announced that that is not being done.   
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 12, 2019, 05:09:14 AM
Bloodlines 2, no matter how the game turns out to be in the end, will never be the original Bloodlines, and that is okay. Bloodlines is a cult classic game. A game which holds emotional significance for many of us. Do not measure Bloodlines 2 with the original, measure Bloodlines 2 as its own game.

Thank you.

And people, please... give the goddamn game a chance.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 12, 2019, 12:50:33 PM
Actually, I think it's pretty fair to compare this to Bloodlines 1. They specifically decided to make this Bloodlines 2. They could have used the VtM setting without tying it to the first, if they wanted to, so of course I am going to compare the two. I don't see any reason to be unfair to it, just because I love the first one, but it was up to them to keep the games separated. Of course, a lot of time has passed as well, so that's something to be mindful of as well.

As for the politics, coming from someone that does have a few reservations about one of the writers, as I saw her kind of whine about a rape scene in Hotline Miami 2 (which worries me given the very dark nature of Bloodlines), I don't think it will have an impact, unless it's really poorly handled.

Most people don't care if you take a few jabs here and there at them (I mean, how many were really offended at the joke about voting republicans in Bloodlines 1?), or if it's not presented in a hamfisted way. Damsel is in your face, but she isn't portrayed as some kind of Infallible being, and the other vampires in the very same place, tell you she is a bit overzealous. Plenty of the other vampires talk to you about their ideas, but they aren't a unanimous chore, it's all fairly smooth. Were those "political"? Yes, in the broadest sense. Nobody would care if it was just that, even those who chase after any potential source of outrage.

Honestly, the main problem is just how well or poorly written the game is. If you put personal messages above writing, of course you are going to have a poor story, but that's always a given. Right now, we really don't know anything about the game. Even in today's climate, when someone says they want to be political isn't good enough to determine how they want to go about it, as different people have different standards.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: VampireBill on April 12, 2019, 01:22:07 PM
As was laid out in a fan-made video earlier, from the existing interviews it still *sounds* like there's reasonable hope that they will stick to allowing you to RP pretty much whatever kind of *vampire* (because at the end of the day, you're still a blood-sucking predatory monster, and playing a vegan pacifist vampire wouldn't be a very exciting game) you want to be. There were "political" characters on different sides of the spectrum in the first game, but you weren't locked into embracing their ideals in your dialogue choices. But, if they do end up forcing your character into that in the new game, then... yeah... it will be hard to forgive.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Signothorn on April 12, 2019, 05:50:48 PM
I agree with most opinions offered in this thread. I'd just add that setting apart the massive engine upgrade from NOD to Source, a segment of the Redemption community was concerned that the original Bloodlines wouldn't be as good as Redemption. Despite not having multiplayer, Bloodlines eventually won people over, after the community made the game what it is today. I'll admit that making it a second Bloodlines game adds another layer of expectations however.

Depending on the map design, it may be possible to add a multiplayer component in Unreal 4. I'm one of the few people who had the chance to play the pvp Bloodlines multiplayer that AtrBlizzard made in Source via Alien Swarm, prior to Project Vaulderie. If he could do that primarily by himself, I don't see why the community couldn't step up and make a mp storyteller model for bl2 in Unreal 4, if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Aurelian on April 12, 2019, 06:01:47 PM
As for the politics, coming from someone that does have a few reservations about one of the writers, as I saw her kind of whine about a rape scene in Hotline Miami 2 (which worries me given the very dark nature of Bloodlines), I don't think it will have an impact, unless it's really poorly handled.

Name of that writer, please?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 12, 2019, 07:25:53 PM
I would have called it Bloodlines 2: Redemption (and all your friends are still dead) :razz:
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Oscar on April 12, 2019, 09:19:48 PM
The fact that it’s sequel, instead of original title is testimonial of failure.
Unless you of course love the soulless ”AAA” titles.

- Negrodamus
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: El_Gostro on April 12, 2019, 09:31:40 PM
It does sound like a case of peractorum sequelitis pecunia lactantium (pardon the Godgle pig latin) taking into account , as other posters have said, that they chose the sequel categorization.
Doubts are somewhat assuaged by the fact that the funny fellow with the gloves who directed the bloodlines (1) team seems to be on the helm.

I remember hearing already many years ago how a team was crowdfunding a sort of sequel to that holy grail cult game Planescape Torment , and it seemed as if they had obtained the rights to use or reference that game in their title as the game was also called "Torment".
From what I gather, they made a big fanfare about how they got some or many of the original team that developed PST including  Chris Avellone and even got the same Mitsoda who worked in Bloodlines into the team.
From what I understan, the final product turned out to be a rather misshapen mess, despite the long development time and apparently very successful funding.


Then again, this is a rather irrelevant musing as most likely than not I won't be playing it as even if the funds to afford a rig situable for playing it were made available , most likely would burn it in tardigrade fertility research.... :chinscratch:

And it's rather early, so guess we'll see?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 12, 2019, 09:32:53 PM
As for the politics, coming from someone that does have a few reservations about one of the writers, as I saw her kind of whine about a rape scene in Hotline Miami 2 (which worries me given the very dark nature of Bloodlines), I don't think it will have an impact, unless it's really poorly handled.

Name of that writer, please?

That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 13, 2019, 01:45:16 AM
That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...

Well as much as we love the first one we do have to admit there are issues regarding some types of portrayals. Mostly malkavians which are pure caricatures of people with mental illnesses.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 13, 2019, 04:25:55 AM
That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...

Well as much as we love the first one we do have to admit there are issues regarding some types of portrayals. Mostly malkavians which are pure caricatures of people with mental illnesses.

Could you explain what you mean by "issue?" Different people elevate different things to different levels when they use such words. Are you implying it's like a step down from blackface or something? Sure, the insanity shown by Malks shown in Bloodlines is largely inaccurate, but it's very fun and often funny. The game isn't ruining the lives of people with mental illnesses. While I would like to see some really brilliantly-written legitimized mental illnesses in Bloodlines 2, the complete eradication of anything comedic will erase what is easily one of most players' favorite parts of the first game.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 13, 2019, 06:16:26 AM
I wonder if people consider Harley Quinn to be an issue; it's very similar.  I'd hazard a guess of not many.  True, there are a lot of snow flakes around these days that get upset over what is, in reality, nothing and I'm sure that whatever is written into BL2 (whether BL1ish or not) there will be those buying or reading reviews (or making them) that berate it.  The key thing for a sequel really isn't so much how similar it is except that the story is an extension and is good.  I don't think I've ever played a sequel where the same characters as the first looked or sounded like the original.   I don't know of any where the fighting system or controls weren't radically changed.  Generally, the developers will think they are making improvements - some work, some don't.  There may be annoyance (people still complain about the melee changes from Gothic 2 to Gothic 3) but as long as the story advance makes sense, it can work.  I'm always negative; I expect the worse.  I still hope for a great game.  However, I won't pre-order. 

What I think would be cool is a cameo by Christoff.  :)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: VampireBill on April 13, 2019, 07:01:19 AM

Well as much as we love the first one we do have to admit there are issues regarding some types of portrayals. Mostly malkavians which are pure caricatures of people with mental illnesses.

Did anyone playing see Malkavians and have their take-away honestly be "This is what people with mental illnesses must be like IRL!", or did they just see them as fictional supernatural characters driven batty as a result of their fictional supernatural curse, and actually hearing real (non-delusional) voices in their heads?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 13, 2019, 08:15:53 AM
The fact that it’s sequel, instead of original title is testimonial of failure.
Unless you of course love the soulless ”AAA” titles.

- Negrodamus

Well, now that might be going a little too far. If what they say is true, they went with a pitch to Paradox, it wasn't Paradox shopping for a sequel. That would mean they are passionate about the idea of making another game in the same world. Of course, I don't know what's going on in their heads, I can just speculate based on what they said.

Well as much as we love the first one we do have to admit there are issues regarding some types of portrayals. Mostly malkavians which are pure caricatures of people with mental illnesses.

I don't think it's meant to be derogatory or fully representative, so I find the the idea that it had issues to be a fundamental misunderstanding. By that token, any character ever portrayed in any media has issues because he/she doesn't represent appropriately any groups they are a part of. Of course, a single character cannot represent all people in their group, that's insane (pun intended).

Also, "raving lunatics" do exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CAwi-Y--fQ

If anything, Malkavians are too rational under their ramblings (which some might even argue is a more accurate portrayal of mental illness than most XD).

Finally, this is an illness created by a blood curse, does it even have to reflect real life mental issues at all? At the end of the day, the game has to be fun. I like Grout's manor, I like Therese/Jeanette (but I love Jeanette, god bless her insane, digital soul), and I like every single Malkavian line and interaction in the game (they are actually my favourite clan in the game, I am currently through my nth run of the game with one). I am of course unapologetic about it.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 13, 2019, 08:54:35 AM
I like Grout's manor, I like Therese/Jeanette (but I love Jeanette, god bless her insane, digital soul), and I like every single Malkavian line and interaction in the game (they are actually my favourite clan in the game, I am currently through my nth run of the game with one).

I fear this might not be about the over-the-top-funny Malkavian player in the first place, but Jeanette and Therese which are indeed schizophrenic. But their depth as characters was one of the reasons why Bloodlines became my favorite game, and cutting something like this in B2 would mean loosing a lot...
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 13, 2019, 09:16:33 AM
I fear this might not be about the over-the-top-funny Malkavian player in the first place, but Jeanette and Therese which are indeed schizophrenic. But their depth as characters was one of the reasons why Bloodlines became my favorite game, and cutting something like this in B2 would mean loosing a lot...

On the positive side, it's not like they can't write good characters just because they might have a few moral issues on certain topics, I just worry because that type of morals seems extremely out of place in the kind of dark world that you'd expect in a VtM game.

As I said in another post, though, this might be nothing to worry about, and had this game been released 10 years ago, I'd know nothing about the politics of the involved writers. The journalistic discussion has taken a political turn, so you get political questions and answers, with pundits that emphasize this further. We really don't know enough about the game at the moment, and it all depends on how gracefully the writing team handles any of this.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Aurelian on April 13, 2019, 02:01:14 PM
That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...

Yeah, so I googled her work a bit. I think that she would have major issues with many elements from the original Bloodlines. It all depends how high in the hierarchy of the studio she is, how much her voice carries weight, so to speak.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: El_Gostro on April 13, 2019, 02:17:57 PM
Quite generous, this capture from the biggest MMORPG :
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Cara_Ellison.jpg/800px-Cara_Ellison.jpg)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 13, 2019, 07:40:39 PM
That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...

Yeah, so I googled her work a bit. I think that she would have major issues with many elements from the original Bloodlines.

Still she loved it enough to get involved in the sequel in the first place. You mustn't forget than some things were already censored in Bloodlines 1 because they were not deemed right at the time! Most of which I restored in the UP :)...
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Signothorn on April 13, 2019, 07:50:55 PM
That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...

Yeah, so I googled her work a bit. I think that she would have major issues with many elements from the original Bloodlines.

Still she loved it enough to get involved in the sequel in the first place. You mustn't forget than some things were already censored in Bloodlines 1 because they were not deemed right at the time! Most of which I restored in the UP :)...

Not to mention that people are capable of separating their personal biases in business if they choose.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: MooCHa on April 13, 2019, 11:30:05 PM
That would be Cara Ellison and she is the reason why people fear B2 would not be as naughty as the original...

Yeah, so I googled her work a bit. I think that she would have major issues with many elements from the original Bloodlines.

Still she loved it enough to get involved in the sequel in the first place. You mustn't forget than some things were already censored in Bloodlines 1 because they were not deemed right at the time! Most of which I restored in the UP :)...

If they enjoy having a career it would make sense. Just watch them sell their soul to Caine ;)

Edit: Add signo post to my post and it makes sense.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 14, 2019, 12:53:58 AM
Journalism in the USA has bias strongly affecting work and doing well at the same time. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 14, 2019, 08:05:59 AM
For my part, I think we need to go the "give the game a chance" route.  This kind of Debbie Downer Chicken Little talk can create self fulfilling prophecies.  If enough people read this thread and think "Oh Gosh, that OP guy is right, the game is gonna suck, I better not buy it" then it could very well crash.  I would rather see it succeed if its a good game and since the original main writer is involved, I see no reason on earth why it can't be a good game. I don't think its going to suck.

All this talk of politics though.  What are some people expecting this to be?  A presidential campaign rally?  Republicans Vs Democrats?  I think for the most part, the "politics" we see will be vampire politics.  This whole setting is hugely political in that regard, is it not?  The politics of the Camarilla, the politics of the clans and factions, etc.  THAT is the kind of politics I expect that we will mainly see.

As for this boogeyman lady writer (if her first name were Anita I might be concerned, but its not thankfully), the original game didn't have rape and I don't expect this game will have rape either.  The game won't need rape to be fun, so I don't expect we will have much to worry about.  Frankly, I don't see how a writer's aversion to rape should be a cause of concern for the content of the game.  We want a vampire game, not "Deliverance the PC Game".  We can be naughty in a fun way without there being rape in the game.  I try to picture my PC's sire's voice saying "He got a real purty mouth, don't he?!" and its just not working for me as a Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines game scenario.  So I think we can all relax and wait and see what the game is actually like.  Personally, I am feeling VERY optimistic and excited. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: ush on April 14, 2019, 11:16:26 AM
"As for this boogeyman lady writer (if her first name were Anita I might be concerned, but its not thankfully), the original game didn't have rape and I don't expect this game will have rape either.  The game won't need rape to be fun"

Neither did Hotline Miami 2, but that didn't stop her launching a moral panic.

Reality is that if the original Bloodlines was launched today she'd be calling for it to be censored.

Thats the head writer. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Radical21 on April 14, 2019, 11:25:27 AM
I've spent some time now on some various communities and reading a bit about VtMB2 and most importantly the fan reactions and expecations to it. And from that I've come to think that the game will be a big failure in the end.

I think the game itself will be pretty good and worthwhile to play as a game, but I think it will not measure up to Bloodlines and may fail in the end in relation to what's expected from the invested effort and money into the game.

The reason I think this is that I think it can never live up to the Bloodline hype, that the majority of the, in my opinion, extremely conservative fan base of VtM will not accept the V5 setting. And that given how, at least that's what I've heard but I could be wrong here, that its meant to be a political game, I think the current political climate might be that it draws flak in a way similar to V5 or becomes so partisan, to avoid this, that it will essentially be preaching to the faithful and with little new or interesting to say, while driving away those not adhering to the political message of the game. And this could also be true even if the game isn't supposed to be political.

I made this thread to see if there are others who thinks the same or, if I've got it all wrong with this?

That's ok kid , Bloodlines didn't measure up to VTMR's multiplayer in my book. so I'm not worried. 
Even if the game itself falls flat , if it is mod-friendly then its all good,  it would still sustain a community to lift it up.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Radical21 on April 14, 2019, 11:33:27 AM
I like Grout's manor, I like Therese/Jeanette (but I love Jeanette, god bless her insane, digital soul), and I like every single Malkavian line and interaction in the game (they are actually my favourite clan in the game, I am currently through my nth run of the game with one).

I fear this might not be about the over-the-top-funny Malkavian player in the first place, but Jeanette and Therese which are indeed schizophrenic. But their depth as characters was one of the reasons why Bloodlines became my favorite game, and cutting something like this in B2 would mean loosing a lot...

Schizophrenia is loss of touch with Reality .  Therese/Jeanette suffers from Dissociative identity disorder (DID). 
 
I think the rest of it depends on how you interpret the game.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: El_Gostro on April 14, 2019, 12:08:55 PM
Has anyone figured out what Dacto- Pindalism is yet?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 14, 2019, 02:06:31 PM
"As for this boogeyman lady writer (if her first name were Anita I might be concerned, but its not thankfully), the original game didn't have rape and I don't expect this game will have rape either.  The game won't need rape to be fun"

Neither did Hotline Miami 2, but that didn't stop her launching a moral panic.

Reality is that if the original Bloodlines was launched today she'd be calling for it to be censored.

Thats the head writer. Good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure she's not the head writer.  I'm fairly certain that the original head writer Brian Mitsoda is the head writer.  If you watch that video from NoClip from last week, he's one of the ones who pitched doing the game to Paradox.  They had already planned on doing it eventually somewhere down the line, but he's one of the ones that talked them into doing it now.  The other guy apparently being someone named "Kai Clooney" or something like that, I couldn't quite catch it as he was talking kind of fast there.  But the point is, this game is in the hands of THE original writer and he probably had a big say in the staff that will be working under him.  Her moral viewpoints aside, he must think she's a good writer and thinks she's worthy of the project.  So, how about we just give the game a chance?  The only credits I can find right now state that he's the writer.  https://www.igdb.com/games/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2/credits  The video calls him the "Narrative Lead" which sounds like a fancy way of saying "lead writer" to me.  Regardless, he's the one in charge of much of the writing and the direction of the narrative and he's the one in charge of all of the other writers. 

So we need to keep a positive outlook about this.  There isn't any REAL reason to freak out just yet.

Here's the video I mentioned: 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: ush on April 14, 2019, 10:37:19 PM
You can call her what you want, Head Writer, Senior Writer, Chief Sparrow, she's involved and that's reason enough for me to give this game a body swerve.  I'm not supporting some latter day gaming version of the PMRC
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 15, 2019, 02:41:55 AM
You can call her what you want, Head Writer, Senior Writer, Chief Sparrow, she's involved and that's reason enough for me to give this game a body swerve.  I'm not supporting some latter day gaming version of the PMRC

Sometimes I can't feel proud of the videogame community. Wonder why.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 15, 2019, 04:05:27 AM
You can call her what you want, Head Writer, Senior Writer, Chief Sparrow, she's involved and that's reason enough for me to give this game a body swerve.  I'm not supporting some latter day gaming version of the PMRC

That’s your prerogative.  I for one am just not that worried over the fact that she shared her opinion on rape scenes or mock rape scenes in video games, she’s not the first person who ever expressed an opinion on something. So I will be giving the game a chance.  If it lacks rape scenes that’s just not gonna be a problem for me.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: ush on April 15, 2019, 12:43:44 PM
Here's an opinion: You're constantly pretending that you have a fuzzy understanding of the problem people have with Ellisons involvement.  It's a form of weasel words to re frame debate that's clumsy and obvious.

She didn't just express an opinion, she wrote an article on HM2 that sparked a moral panic among her fellow sparrows

https://www.pcgamer.com/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number-1/

"I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting."

That's not just an opinion when it's in an article for a major gaming website, that's finger pointing for an outrage mob.

This has nothing to do with rape scenes or lack thereof, and BTW despite your assertion,  there's a whole mission based around rape and snuff movies in Bloodlines, how problematic. Hopefully Bloodines 2 can "do better" or "punch up"  :D


It has everything to do with me not giving money to games that are being developed by the high sparrows of a self appointed censorship board.  I don't even think a VTM game where ideologues like Ellison have input is capable of reaching the heights that the original did. Ideologues can only make propaganda. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 15, 2019, 02:11:41 PM
Here's an opinion: You're constantly pretending that you have a fuzzy understanding of the problem people have with Ellisons involvement.  It's a form of weasel words to re frame debate that's clumsy and obvious.

She didn't just express an opinion, she wrote an article on HM2 that sparked a moral panic among her fellow sparrows

https://www.pcgamer.com/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number-1/

"I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting."

That's not just an opinion when it's in an article for a major gaming website, that's finger pointing for an outrage mob.

This has nothing to do with rape scenes or lack thereof, and BTW despite your assertion,  there's a whole mission based around rape and snuff movies in Bloodlines, how problematic. Hopefully Bloodines 2 can "do better" or "punch up"  :D


It has everything to do with me not giving money to games that are being developed by the high sparrows of a self appointed censorship board.  I don't even think a VTM game where ideologues like Ellison have input is capable of reaching the heights that the original did. Ideologues can only make propaganda.

I hear you. I am not as fatalistic, because right now it's hard to have an idea of her impact on the script, but her involvement did dampen my enthusiasm a bit. I went and checked to see about her involvement in other games, but it's all minor stuff so far, plus a pretty short, kind of mediocre Twine adventure for "Unwinnable’s Sex Week", which I didn't even know was a thing in any way, shape or form.

She is a senior writer, so she will likely have some weight in the direction of the story, but I can't say how much (it really depends on how things are run and how the writing team is structured). I must say, I am surprised that she got a senior writing position, with her lackluster background.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Radical21 on April 15, 2019, 02:20:33 PM
Very creative new names for these new accounts...

Anyways my problem with this is a persecution of individuals, we've seen it happen before in the gaming community.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 15, 2019, 02:34:35 PM
Very creative new names for these new accounts...

Anyways my problem with this is a persecution of individuals, we've seen it happen before in the gaming community.

If you are talking about me, I registered in 2010 (I just never posted all that much, and stopped coming for a few years altogether)... My nickname has a meaning to me, and as for originality, I doubt there are many mdqp around (although surprisingly, I did find it was taken on a few forums/services, much to my dismay).

As for persecution, all I can say is if I can't even suggest that what I know about her makes her look like a bad choice for her job, then I might as well never talk about anything at all. This has been a fairly tame discussion, all in all, with only 2 or 3 more emotional posts. Finally, if people hate her, they'll hate her with or without anyone's consent, I doubt persecution starts in this type of forum or thread, thankfully.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 15, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
Here's an opinion: You're constantly pretending that you have a fuzzy understanding of the problem people have with Ellisons involvement.  It's a form of weasel words to re frame debate that's clumsy and obvious.

She didn't just express an opinion, she wrote an article on HM2 that sparked a moral panic among her fellow sparrows

https://www.pcgamer.com/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number-1/

"I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting."

That's not just an opinion when it's in an article for a major gaming website, that's finger pointing for an outrage mob.

This has nothing to do with rape scenes or lack thereof, and BTW despite your assertion,  there's a whole mission based around rape and snuff movies in Bloodlines, how problematic. Hopefully Bloodines 2 can "do better" or "punch up"  :D


It has everything to do with me not giving money to games that are being developed by the high sparrows of a self appointed censorship board.  I don't even think a VTM game where ideologues like Ellison have input is capable of reaching the heights that the original did. Ideologues can only make propaganda.

Like I said, its your prerogative.  I'm still going to give the game a chance.  You don't like her, fine.  I am not trying to talk you out of it. 

But I will say this.  I have played Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines many many times in the last 11 to 12 years and not once have I *ever* managed to watch a rape scene.  Not once. The "snuff" scene that we actually watched on screen was footage of a completely clothed young woman being torn apart by monsters after having been lured to a creepy house.  The game is loaded with examples of people being torn apart by monsters, often *our PC* is the monster doing it and the victims of this violence are male AND female.  Was there a mission with dead bodies and evidence of the aftermath of some very brutal, murderous acts known as "snuff"?    Yes.  I don't deny that.  That has never been my assertion.  There is a HUGE difference however, behind the acknowledgement within the game that something happened and actually *depicting it*, even partially, on screen. Beyond that, this game is definitely filled with dangerous sexuality and various forms of brutality.  Oftentimes disgusting and sick acts, like torn apart bodies.  We can make people bulge in agony as their blood boils, right before they explode into a shower of blood, red gristle and chunks of meat.   We roam around and drink blood out of our victim's necks, some times til they're dead if we so choose and want to risk the loss of humanity.  We manipulate people into letting us drink from them, sometimes using a discipline called "seduction".  We can use conventional arms to shoot people or hack them to death. None of this is lost on me.  Absolutely none of it.  Violence, brutality, dangerous sexuality and eroticism is an ingrained part of this franchise.  I have never tried to deny that.  I like that aspect of it.  I hope we can get even sexier in the sequel and focus some of that sexiness on the men and not just the women. Dangerous sexuality and eroticism is an extremely important part of the franchise.  If she intends to do away with all of that, and I play the game and discover that she has, I will be right there with you feeling pretty damned outraged and I will not be quiet about it.  Believe me.  But as I keep saying, I am going to give the game a chance.  Its as simple as that.  Besides, if she has an aversion simply to video game violence and sexuality she picked a strange franchise to attach herself to.

What I have personally read about her protestations are that she was annoyed that only women were the focus of this sexual brutality:

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison

The impression I get is that she wouldn't have been quite as annoyed or felt quite as "betrayed" had this not been restricted only to women in the game.  She in fact seems to have glorified in the powerful thuggishness and bad assery of her PC until this point, suggesting to me that she's not against violence itself in games.  Yes I am aware that she is using some eye roll inducing buzz terms like "safe space".  But I am looking at the message behind her words, the idea that she is trying to convey.   This is MY understanding of this controversy.  Is it "fuzzy"?  Maybe.  But is it an understanding that I am "pretending" to have?  Not even close.  Why would I even do that?  That's weird. So how about we limit our discussion to the actual topic and stay away from making personal accusations, OK?  I don't see any reason for that, just because we disagree about something. 

Bottom line.  I am giving the game a chance.  You don't have to if you don't want to.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 15, 2019, 06:06:16 PM
As far as I know Cara Ellison is foremost wríting the sidequest in which you need to find the other six new embraced thin bloods and see how they cope with being a vampire. This could be a rather humane questline, so to speak. Assuming that Brian Mitsoda wrote the main quest, I would really like to know what kind of things Chris Avellone got to write!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Zeppeli on April 15, 2019, 07:20:07 PM
I will not be touching it
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Azrael on April 15, 2019, 09:58:21 PM
Has anyone figured out what Dacto- Pindalism is yet?

Assuming he actually said DACTYL - Pintalisim (Pointalism? Pin-toe-ism?) it's probably some kind of fucked up/made up therapy involving poking people in the fingers and toes with sharp objects. Or electricity. You know how those ol' wacky psychology pioneers were. Probably stabbed needled dipped in cocaine into your toes and then ran a current through em for kicks. TBH some of these new bloods could use that kind of stimulation. By the sound of their whinging.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 16, 2019, 02:21:44 AM
Has anyone figured out what Dacto- Pindalism is yet?

Assuming he actually said DACTYL - Pintalisim (Pointalism? Pin-toe-ism?) it's probably some kind of fucked up/made up therapy involving poking people in the fingers and toes with sharp objects. Or electricity. You know how those ol' wacky psychology pioneers were. Probably stabbed needled dipped in cocaine into your toes and then ran a current through em for kicks. TBH some of these new bloods could use that kind of stimulation. By the sound of their whinging.

My take is that, if real, it was a hyphenated word.  I could only find one forefather of insanity treatment that could match this:  French physician Philippe Pinel (1745–1826) and former patient Jean-Baptise Pussin created a “traitement moral” at La Bicêtre and the Salpêtrière in 1793 and 1795.  Nothing I found could match the dachto part except a Bishop Ignace Dachto from the same time period.  Doubt he did any brain related research, though. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 16, 2019, 06:06:13 AM
As far as I know Cara Ellison is foremost wríting the sidequest in which you need to find the other six new embraced thin bloods and see how they cope with being a vampire. This could be a rather humane questline, so to speak. Assuming that Brian Mitsoda wrote the main quest, I would really like to know what kind of things Chris Avellone got to write!

That sounds pretty awesome coming from a "supposed SJW".
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Zanderat on April 16, 2019, 01:16:01 PM
I am with @DarkZephyr.  Keeping an open mind and hopeful (given what I know about the game) that it will turn out great.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: VampireBill on April 16, 2019, 02:49:28 PM

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: The Shadow Man on April 16, 2019, 04:03:10 PM

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

Safe space?! This is meant to be a personal horror game about playing as a vampire!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Zanderat on April 16, 2019, 04:16:07 PM

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.
Confused.  There is no rape scene in VTMBL.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Signothorn on April 16, 2019, 04:45:31 PM
I think it may be good to have a larger female influence in the writing of BL2. In BL1, females were much more sexualized than males, likely because of how many males were writing vs women. There were many females who played the game, but we don't often hear their perspectives about the experience playing BL1. I don't find conflict in what Cara said, I just want to understand more. I have noticed on moddb and other places that some female players have made more modest skins of the female PC's to make the game more appealing to them. There are also players who are lesbian, and like sexualized women. I don't view these positions as "they're going to take away BL2's "fappability" for guys. With the modding capability of the game, and the Rule 34-type stuff, guys can create whatever they want. I'm not a fan of identity politics in general, but I am a fan of listening to the views of others. I don't need to pull up stats of how many more males there are in this forum vs women for you to understand how skewed it is.

I think it would be a good thing for BL2 to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without losing the sense of personal horror and tone of the original. I want to hear more from females, not less. Outstar on youtube has a good video about human politics in BL1, and how it was done in a subtle way that was fairly balanced and not in your face. Why wouldn't BL2 be the same? I understand the doubts, we haven't seen much of the game yet, and we don't want to hype ourselves up and be let down at the end, because we've been let down by CCP and forced to wait so long for a new game. Asking questions and speculating is par for the course, but I think bashing BL2 before we even see much of it is premature and kinda silly, even though it's more the exception than the rule of this topic.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 16, 2019, 05:29:56 PM
I think it may be good to have a larger female influence in the writing of BL2. In BL1, females were much more sexualized than males, likely because of how many males were writing vs women. There were many females who played the game, but we don't often hear their perspectives about the experience playing BL1. I don't find conflict in what Cara said, I just want to understand more. I have noticed on moddb and other places that some female players have made more modest skins of the female PC's to make the game more appealing to them. There are also players who are lesbian, and like sexualized women. I don't view these positions as "they're going to take away BL2's "fappability" for guys. With the modding capability of the game, and the Rule 34-type stuff, guys can create whatever they want. I'm not a fan of identity politics in general, but I am a fan of listening to the views of others. I don't need to pull up stats of how many more males there are in this forum vs women for you to understand how skewed it is.

I think it would be a good thing for BL2 to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without losing the sense of personal horror and tone of the original. I want to hear more from females, not less. Outstar on youtube has a good video about human politics in BL1, and how it was done in a subtle way that was fairly balanced and not in your face. Why wouldn't BL2 be the same? I understand the doubts, we haven't seen much of the game yet, and we don't want to hype ourselves up and be let down at the end, because we've been let down by CCP and forced to wait so long for a new game. Asking questions and speculating is par for the course, but I think bashing BL2 before we even see much of it is premature and kinda silly, even though it's more the exception than the rule of this topic.

I think I kind of agree with most of your points, although I don't quite see having a skewed male/female population in any given game (or forum) as a problem, as I am sure like with any activities there are male and female dominated areas (and I also think that trying to please everybody is a good recipe to create bland art and products).

But I think the problem about the political discussion comes back to what I mentioned already. Me 10-15 years ago didn't really get to hear about the developers' politics. Maybe I just didn't look hard enough, but from what I can see it's simply the case that game journalists weren't nearly as interested in those back then. Nowadays, you get a lot of questions about politics (in the interviews, you can it's the journalists that often bring this up first). You also have widespread social media, making it easier to hear stuff that would have been strictly personal a while ago.

On top of that, you get to hear them (paraphrasing here) that Bloodlines 1 was a good game, but it was also problematic, that they won't punch down, etc. I think a large portion of the fans like Bloodlines 1 just as it is (minus the bugs XD), and they don't see any particular issues with it (certainly not enough to call it problematic, or saying dismissively that it's a product of its time). It's not perfect, of course, but I don't think making a game with the exact same sensibilites nowadays should be perceived as insulting by anybody.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 16, 2019, 07:12:55 PM

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

I know that for some people "safe space" is a term of dread, but I am focusing on the message she is trying to convey when I read her words rather than her eye roll inducing buzz terminology.  She is not the first person to ever criticize forced events in video games that players didn't get to choose to do and she won't be the last.  Her main problem with this forced event was that it was rape of a woman and on top of that, no male NPCs were put into similar situations.



"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

Safe space?! This is meant to be a personal horror game about playing as a vampire!

She was talking about Hotline Miami 2, not Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. 


"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.
Confused.  There is no rape scene in VTMBL.

Yes, I think people are misunderstanding what that quote is about and perhaps I should have been more clear, but the person I was having the discussion with was aware of what I was referring to (at least I assume he was).  After doing a bit of research a few days ago, I learned that people are upset by her attachment to the project because of her protestations of a scene in the game "Hotline Miami part 2", which is what the quote is about.   

She was playing the game and came upon a situation where she thought she would have to hit a woman which she was actually willing to do with her male PC "Pig Butcher" as she had done with previous male NPCs but when she went to do so, the game took over and her character, without her control, walked up to the woman , pinned her down and yanked his pants down, on the verge of raping the girl.  She didn't choose to have her PC commit this act nor did she feel comfortable as a woman being forced to play out such a scene. 

She isn't the first person to complain about a forced event in video games and she won't be the last.  I can kind of understand where she's coming from.  I know that I myself am not overly fond of when my PC is suddenly portrayed, without my control, as making a decision that *I* would never have had him or her make.  I usually shout at the screen "No!  No no no!  He/She wouldn't DO that!".  I think I can see why a woman would be upset if her character was basically usurped from her by the game and made to carry out an act like that. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: VampireBill on April 17, 2019, 12:33:15 AM

She isn't the first person to complain about a forced event in video games and she won't be the last.  I can kind of understand where she's coming from.  I know that I myself am not overly fond of when my PC is suddenly portrayed, without my control, as making a decision that *I* would never have had him or her make.  I usually shout at the screen "No!  No no no!  He/She wouldn't DO that!".  I think I can see why a woman would be upset if her character was basically usurped from her by the game and made to carry out an act like that.

True. I think we're all against our characters being forced to do something or take a position on something we don't agree with in an RPG, and ironically that's actually one of the worries that we'll lose that with the current state of gaming politics. On a more humorous, but still frustrating side, the Dragon Age games come to mind, where you thought you were choosing a harmless friendly dialogue option (and often to avoid a seemingly negative/mean dialogue option), and next thing you know your character is having full-out gay sex with that NPC, ha.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 17, 2019, 02:04:32 AM

She isn't the first person to complain about a forced event in video games and she won't be the last.  I can kind of understand where she's coming from.  I know that I myself am not overly fond of when my PC is suddenly portrayed, without my control, as making a decision that *I* would never have had him or her make.  I usually shout at the screen "No!  No no no!  He/She wouldn't DO that!".  I think I can see why a woman would be upset if her character was basically usurped from her by the game and made to carry out an act like that.

True. I think we're all against our characters being forced to do something or take a position on something we don't agree with in an RPG, and ironically that's actually one of the worries that we'll lose that with the current state of gaming politics. On a more humorous, but still frustrating side, the Dragon Age games come to mind, where you thought you were choosing a harmless friendly dialogue option (and often to avoid a seemingly negative/mean dialogue option), and next thing you know your character is having full-out gay sex with that NPC, ha.

LOL That was never a problem for me when it happened! :D

Although on the other hand, My guy wound up having sex with Morrigan at camp when I least expected it (I was trying to be a good friend and keep her warm, she said she was cold!) and was trying to romance Zevran.  Earlier BioWare games DID have issues with what we like to call "Ninja-mancing".  I think they try hard to avoid that now, although sometimes their attempts at that are met with derision as well, like in Dragon Age 2, you knew what the flirt options were because of the hearts, but apparently some found it easy to get Anders mad at them if they didn't choose the flirt.  Personally that never happened to me that I can recall.  I preferred to get my gay on with Fenris after my first romance with Anders.  But in part 3, I had to WORK at it to get the Iron Bull to plow my Inquisitor.  lol  So maybe they finally got it right. 

The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

I love the way Saints Row 4 lampoons rpg romances, even though I am a big fan of them. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 17, 2019, 03:38:00 AM
The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

If you like your women sexy and castrating, then Yen's your chick !
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 17, 2019, 06:11:48 AM
Dark Zephyr said, "I know that for some people "safe space" is a term of dread, ---- ".  Well, yes we do.  From what I can tell, it's a place where people who think and act alike and consider anything different as wrong go to hide in a bubble from reality.  Generally, a writer's personal biases come out in their work and that sort of thinking, if rampant, could sink a dark project.  However, that doesn't mean it will be rampant.  Again, I hope but I don't expect. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 17, 2019, 08:10:32 AM
On a more humorous, but still frustrating side, the Dragon Age games come to mind, where you thought you were choosing a harmless friendly dialogue option (and often to avoid a seemingly negative/mean dialogue option), and next thing you know your character is having full-out gay sex with that NPC, ha.

In the demo that I saw the dialogue answers were displayed as a list in full text, like in Bloodlines, so nothing like a vague dialogue wheel :).
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 17, 2019, 09:24:06 AM
In the demo that I saw the dialogue answers were displayed as a list in full text, like in Bloodlines, so nothing like a vague dialogue wheel :).

Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2? Are there images or videos of it online? Or are you referring to one of the Dragon Age games?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 17, 2019, 10:03:53 AM
Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2?

Yes, Paradox contacted me end of January to show the beginning of the game via a web session. But I wasn't allowed to say anything until the announcement!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 17, 2019, 10:24:24 AM
Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2?

Yes, Paradox contacted me end of January to show the beginning of the game via a web session. But I wasn't allowed to say anything until the announcement!

Can you share everything you saw now? I bet a lot of people (including me) would like to hear more about it. I have read a few articles, but I value your thoughts quite a bit, so if you can say more, please do. ^_^
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 17, 2019, 10:51:38 AM
The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

If you like your women sexy and castrating, then Yen's your chick !

Eh? Yen who?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 17, 2019, 10:53:28 AM
Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2?

Yes, Paradox contacted me end of January to show the beginning of the game via a web session. But I wasn't allowed to say anything until the announcement!

Can you share everything you saw now? I bet a lot of people (including me) would like to hear more about it. I have read a few articles, but I value your thoughts quite a bit, so if you can say more, please do. ^_^

IF there's something you're allowed to talk about :P
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 17, 2019, 12:01:38 PM
Can you share everything you saw now?

I don't really know. The NDA I signed goes for 3 years, but I guess I can confirm what others already did. I was shown the beginning of the game which is pretty much as it was described in magazines and webpages. You start off as victim of a mass embrace, end up in a court because of this which get's firebombed so you escape. During that time you can test the three basic thinblood disciplines that are described and decide with which one you will go. You'll be contacted by a female pointing you to the pier, where you meet another vampire who points you to your haven, where you'll meet Dale who is really funny and pure Mitsoda genius! After that they had some technical problems so I didn't see the Seattle hub that the press saw.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 17, 2019, 12:21:01 PM
I don't really know. The NDA I signed goes for 3 years, but I guess I can confirm what others already did. I was shown the beginning of the game which is pretty much as it was described in magazines and webpages. You start off as victim of a mass embrace, end up in a court because of this which get's firebombed so you escape. During that time you can test the three basic thinblood disciplines that are described and decide with which one you will go. You'll be contacted by a female pointing you to the pier, where you meet another vampire who points you to your haven, where you'll meet Dale who is really funny and pure Mitsoda genius! After that they had some technical problems so I didn't see the Seattle hub that the press saw.

You know, this isn't much, but it's already enough to get me hyped all over again. I really wish this turns out great, the wait is going to kill me. I guess I'll have a chance to try out all the mods I didn't experience so far. XD

Weirdly enough, I am also pretty excited to play a not-so-junky Bloodline game, I really hope they do a good job on the technical side. Getting stuck while walking for no obvious reason (because I snagged against some invisible thing or another, especially in the warrens) is pretty annoying, and the AI is disgustingly unresponsive at times in the old Bloodlines (they'll never figure out these damn doors... XD).

Speaking of which, the patch included with GOG is not the plus version, right? There is no shortcut to skip the sewers unless I use the other one, I assume. I am considering doing multiple runs, and that part of the game can drag for too long (I don't really mind it as much as others do, because it's a nice "trial" if you have been focusing on non-combat abilities, but it's just that the level design and enemy distribution is often more clunky than challenging, and after a couple of runs, I can see myself getting tired of it).
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: The Shadow Man on April 17, 2019, 01:57:21 PM
I'm hopefully for the mod support out of the box they are promising. That way if there's anything I vehemently dislike hopefully this will prove as way to remove it from my game.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 17, 2019, 02:33:56 PM
Speaking of which, the patch included with GOG is not the plus version, right?

Yes, the GOG version only included the basic patch.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Zanderat on April 17, 2019, 02:44:29 PM
The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

If you like your women sexy and castrating, then Yen's your chick !

Eh? Yen who?
Team Triss here!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 17, 2019, 03:30:20 PM
Ooooook, googling Team Triss I found out you were talking of Witcher....
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 17, 2019, 09:29:01 PM
The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

If you like your women sexy and castrating, then Yen's your chick !

LOL I agree.  Yen is certainly beautiful.  But Triss is lovely as well and she just seems to care more about Geralt and respect him a lot more and he has a lot of respect for her as well.  He loves Yen but she seems to also get on his last nerve and for good reason.  She can be a bit of a bully.

Dark Zephyr said, "I know that for some people "safe space" is a term of dread, ---- ".  Well, yes we do.  From what I can tell, it's a place where people who think and act alike and consider anything different as wrong go to hide in a bubble from reality.  Generally, a writer's personal biases come out in their work and that sort of thinking, if rampant, could sink a dark project.  However, that doesn't mean it will be rampant.  Again, I hope but I don't expect.

For some people "safe space" isn't really about avoiding people that they consider wrong, its more like a way to take a break from those who think *they're* wrong or somehow less than simply for existing.  While I don't use the term "safe space" myself, because I think its way overused and politicized, as a gay man, I do feel like I can relax and be myself in a gay bar more than I would a straight bar.  Its not because I think straight people are "wrong" or that I want to hide in a bubble from reality.  Its that sometimes I just want to live MY reality w/out worrying that I might get beat up or something.  I don't think occasionally congregating among those like yourself is a terrible or unreasonable thing.  We tend to gladly welcome straight people into our bars and clubs who are allies or friends.

As for how she used the term, what I think she meant was that for her, the gaming world is a place to take a break from the stress of reality.  I know that it is for me too.  If I want to take a break from the current political climate or after other stressful aspects of real life, I like to whip out my laptop and play a fun game for a few hours, maybe while munching on a favorite snack.  It does wonders for my mental health.  As a woman, to be confronted with this act of rape, without being able to retain control of her PC, it probably did infringe on her little zone of mental safety there in a rather jarring way.

"Safe Space" seems to be an accurate enough term for the way that some of us use gaming.  But what term would work just as well that doesn't have all of the political baggage attached to it? 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: El_Gostro on April 17, 2019, 11:35:05 PM
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 18, 2019, 12:23:54 AM


I have always been impressed with Southpark's high quality animation and voice acting.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 18, 2019, 08:39:04 AM
As for how she used the term, what I think she meant was that for her, the gaming world is a place to take a break from the stress of reality.  I know that it is for me too.  If I want to take a break from the current political climate or after other stressful aspects of real life, I like to whip out my laptop and play a fun game for a few hours, maybe while munching on a favorite snack.  It does wonders for my mental health.  As a woman, to be confronted with this act of rape, without being able to retain control of her PC, it probably did infringe on her little zone of mental safety there in a rather jarring way.

"Safe Space" seems to be an accurate enough term for the way that some of us use gaming.  But what term would work just as well that doesn't have all of the political baggage attached to it?

While I can ultimately understand (I mean, I assume almost everyone plays games for fun), I think this particular reaction was misplaced. Hotline Miami (I have yet to play the sequel, but from what I have heard and seen, it seems functionally the same) is a stylized, ultra violent game with a linear narrative (I think you can maybe learn a secret or two, but there isn't much in terms of self-expression and choices). You do horrible things constantly, so I am not so sure that's suddenly too much. Also, we are talking about a topdown 2d, ""pixel art" game, with a 3-4 seconds animation to depict the deed at most (I have found a comparison of the scenes on youtube)... Which turns out to be a scene in a movie (in-game) so it's not even happening for "real" in the game. Heck, she even acknowledges it in her preview, and of course dismisses it as too little too late. She also brings up the 1 in 5 stat, almost as if 1 in 5 women are raped, this all seems very disingenuous.

I don't know, seems like these are terrible standards to have when assessing art in general (a sculpture that is meant to represent something horrible, let's say the decay of the human body when afflicted by cancer, shouldn't be getting a rant by a critic because their father recently died of a terrible disease, or because they are sensitive to such a topic). You might argue that this scene snuck in and took her by surprise, but honestly, seems like I am really reaching now, just to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 18, 2019, 01:26:51 PM
As for how she used the term, what I think she meant was that for her, the gaming world is a place to take a break from the stress of reality.  I know that it is for me too.  If I want to take a break from the current political climate or after other stressful aspects of real life, I like to whip out my laptop and play a fun game for a few hours, maybe while munching on a favorite snack.  It does wonders for my mental health.  As a woman, to be confronted with this act of rape, without being able to retain control of her PC, it probably did infringe on her little zone of mental safety there in a rather jarring way.

"Safe Space" seems to be an accurate enough term for the way that some of us use gaming.  But what term would work just as well that doesn't have all of the political baggage attached to it?

While I can ultimately understand (I mean, I assume almost everyone plays games for fun), I think this particular reaction was misplaced. Hotline Miami (I have yet to play the sequel, but from what I have heard and seen, it seems functionally the same) is a stylized, ultra violent game with a linear narrative (I think you can maybe learn a secret or two, but there isn't much in terms of self-expression and choices). You do horrible things constantly, so I am not so sure that's suddenly too much. Also, we are talking about a topdown 2d, ""pixel art" game, with a 3-4 seconds animation to depict the deed at most (I have found a comparison of the scenes on youtube)... Which turns out to be a scene in a movie (in-game) so it's not even happening for "real" in the game. Heck, she even acknowledges it in her preview, and of course dismisses it as too little too late. She also brings up the 1 in 5 stat, almost as if 1 in 5 women are raped, this all seems very disingenuous.

I don't know, seems like these are terrible standards to have when assessing art in general (a sculpture that is meant to represent something horrible, let's say the decay of the human body when afflicted by cancer, shouldn't be getting a rant by a critic because their father recently died of a terrible disease, or because they are sensitive to such a topic). You might argue that this scene snuck in and took her by surprise, but honestly, seems like I am really reaching now, just to give her the benefit of the doubt.

My stance isn't so much that she's absolutely right about Hotline Miami 2.  Its more "1. I have sympathy for how she felt about it and it doesn't cause me instant concern about the direction of VtmB2 so I am going to give the game a chance, and 2. Using "safe space" the way she was using it in this case doesn't cause me any stress, so I am going to give the game a chance".  I am still excited for the game.  Plus, if she goes somehow off the rail, I think there are other voices there to kind of say "wait a minute!" 

If her reaction to Hotline Miami 2 was knee jerk, I think so too is a reaction like "I'm not gonna touch this game at ALL because SHE'S involved!"  Not that this is what you're saying, I don't get that impression from you, but its the impression I get from what I have read from others.  I get that you are just a bit worried and concerned, and you do have every right to be worried and to voice that worry and concern.

I am just gonna come out and say it.  I think Anita Sarkeesian has made a lot of us VERY gun shy and its easy to assume that any woman involved with gaming who has an averse reaction to content like the Hotline Miami 2 thing is gonna be just like her.  Especially if they use terms like "safe space".  I can TOTALLY understand that fear, believe me.  But I don't think its necessarily true that Cara is like Anita.  I think its actually highly unlikely.  Unlike Anita, Cara Ellison is a genuine gamer with genuine gaming experience AND genuine experience working ON games.  She's the real deal and frankly despite her feelings about Hotline Miami 2, she IS one of us, unlike Ms. Sarkessian who I personally consider a hostile interloper and a fraud.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 18, 2019, 01:54:25 PM
Can you share everything you saw now?

I don't really know. The NDA I signed goes for 3 years, but I guess I can confirm what others already did. I was shown the beginning of the game which is pretty much as it was described in magazines and webpages. You start off as victim of a mass embrace, end up in a court because of this which get's firebombed so you escape. During that time you can test the three basic thinblood disciplines that are described and decide with which one you will go. You'll be contacted by a female pointing you to the pier, where you meet another vampire who points you to your haven, where you'll meet Dale who is really funny and pure Mitsoda genius! After that they had some technical problems so I didn't see the Seattle hub that the press saw.

I am SOOO down for this game.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 18, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
snip

Yeah, I don't think she can give the game a touch of death just by being involved in the project, I am just a bit wary, because the attitude I saw in that article seems to clash with how potentially dark things can be in a VtM:B game, and it all ties together with certain comments being made about the previous game and how this will be different.

I think throwing the game into the garbage bin at this stage is premature (I mean, nowadays you can always wait until after launch, and see on youtube gameplay footage of it, if you are distrustful). The game has actually a lot going for it (same lead writer, lead composer etc.), and while some things were said about the previous game that I didn't feel were fair, they also did say a lot of good things about it, and it does seem like they are passionate about the idea.

I don't know her well enough to make comments about her as a person (or whether she is a gamer or not), it's just that the more I read from her, the less I like her writing.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 18, 2019, 05:26:52 PM
snip

Yeah, I don't think she can give the game a touch of death just by being involved in the project, I am just a bit wary, because the attitude I saw in that article seems to clash with how potentially dark things can be in a VtM:B game, and it all ties together with certain comments being made about the previous game and how this will be different.

I think throwing the game into the garbage bin at this stage is premature (I mean, nowadays you can always wait until after launch, and see on youtube gameplay footage of it, if you are distrustful). The game has actually a lot going for it (same lead writer, lead composer etc.), and while some things were said about the previous game that I didn't feel were fair, they also did say a lot of good things about it, and it does seem like they are passionate about the idea.

I don't know her well enough to make comments about her as a person (or whether she is a gamer or not), it's just that the more I read from her, the less I like her writing.

I think we're pretty much on the same page here.

There are things about the original game (a lot due to ActiVision's meddling) that I would like to see improved on.  For instance, a lot of content that they intended to put in was cut or poo pooed by ActiVision.  For some people (as you might discover if you read other threads at this forum) the potential addition of LGBT friendly content (like male vampires able to seduce male victims and have male blood dolls or ghouls) to the sequel is disconcerting and maybe even "SJW-like" but this was the vision that Troika originally had for VtmB and ActiVision made them cut it.  Also, I strongly suspect that they changed up some of the dialogue like making your Vampire have really goofy smart alecky rebellious kid responses to things as the ONLY choice and not giving alternate things to say instead.  Even back when I first played that game I rolled my eyes, because the sophisticated Ventrue character I had created sounded utterly absurd making those remarks.  But I believe that ActiVision thought that the audience would be too stupid to handle sophisticated dialogue options in addition to what was there.  Regardless of whether or not ActiVision was to blame however, I hope Paradox doesn't go that route again.  Its an area that I would like to see improved and I am thinking it definitely will be. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 18, 2019, 06:30:15 PM
For some people (as you might discover if you read other threads at this forum) the potential addition of LGBT friendly content (like male vampires able to seduce male victims and have male blood dolls or ghouls) to the sequel is disconcerting and maybe even "SJW-like" but this was the vision that Troika originally had for VtmB and ActiVision made them cut it.

I actually doubt that. A few gay characters were already in the game and the ones that I restored with the patch could have been a problem of too little development time left and not of concrete censorships. Because if something was cut on purpose, like the blow-jobs, Troika just disabled it and those characters were never found in the game files!

Quote
Even back when I first played that game I rolled my eyes, because the sophisticated Ventrue character I had created sounded utterly absurd making those remarks.

This is definitely due to time constraint: The dialogue files have specific answer slots for all the clans, but only those for the Malkavians were used in the released game!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 18, 2019, 06:52:57 PM
For some people (as you might discover if you read other threads at this forum) the potential addition of LGBT friendly content (like male vampires able to seduce male victims and have male blood dolls or ghouls) to the sequel is disconcerting and maybe even "SJW-like" but this was the vision that Troika originally had for VtmB and ActiVision made them cut it.

I actually doubt that. A few gay characters were already in the game and the ones that I restored with the patch could have been a problem of too little development time left and not of concrete censorships. Because if something was cut on purpose, like the blow-jobs, Troika just disabled it and those characters were never found in the game files!

Quote
Even back when I first played that game I rolled my eyes, because the sophisticated Ventrue character I had created sounded utterly absurd making those remarks.

This is definitely due to time constraint: The dialogue files have specific answer slots for all the clans, but only those for the Malkavians were used in the released game!

The time constraint thing I would put squarely at ActiVision's feet and their rush to get the game out on the date they decided HAD to be it.  Its also why we have needed your great work all these years to actually be able to play the game. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 19, 2019, 01:38:59 AM
For some people (as you might discover if you read other threads at this forum) the potential addition of LGBT friendly content (like male vampires able to seduce male victims and have male blood dolls or ghouls) to the sequel is disconcerting and maybe even "SJW-like" but this was the vision that Troika originally had for VtmB and ActiVision made them cut it.

I actually doubt that. A few gay characters were already in the game and the ones that I restored with the patch could have been a problem of too little development time left and not of concrete censorships. Because if something was cut on purpose, like the blow-jobs, Troika just disabled it and those characters were never found in the game files!

Quote
Even back when I first played that game I rolled my eyes, because the sophisticated Ventrue character I had created sounded utterly absurd making those remarks.

This is definitely due to time constraint: The dialogue files have specific answer slots for all the clans, but only those for the Malkavians were used in the released game!

I wouldn't expect it, simply due to how much time and money it would cost them, but MAN I would love lots of clan-specific dialog all throughout the game like the Malk dialogs. :D
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 19, 2019, 10:21:55 AM
I think we're pretty much on the same page here.

There are things about the original game (a lot due to ActiVision's meddling) that I would like to see improved on.  For instance, a lot of content that they intended to put in was cut or poo pooed by ActiVision.  For some people (as you might discover if you read other threads at this forum) the potential addition of LGBT friendly content (like male vampires able to seduce male victims and have male blood dolls or ghouls) to the sequel is disconcerting and maybe even "SJW-like" but this was the vision that Troika originally had for VtmB and ActiVision made them cut it.  Also, I strongly suspect that they changed up some of the dialogue like making your Vampire have really goofy smart alecky rebellious kid responses to things as the ONLY choice and not giving alternate things to say instead.  Even back when I first played that game I rolled my eyes, because the sophisticated Ventrue character I had created sounded utterly absurd making those remarks.  But I believe that ActiVision thought that the audience would be too stupid to handle sophisticated dialogue options in addition to what was there.  Regardless of whether or not ActiVision was to blame however, I hope Paradox doesn't go that route again.  Its an area that I would like to see improved and I am thinking it definitely will be.

Is there a record of the content they wanted in the game and was cut (and for what reason)?

I think it's fine to have gay/bi/lesbians characters, of course, although sometimes it becomes also a matter of time/money constraints. It's pretty easy in the case blood dolls, with a couple of throwaway lines and a 3d model, you have a new blood doll, but if they wanted something more involved (for example, a whole new ghoul is already a bit of an investment), that does become something to consider. Having an NPC reveal their sexuality usually only matters if you can interact meaningfully with it. What I mean is, you can write a gay or straight character, but that only matters if we get involved with it somehow, otherwise it's just window dressing, and also makes for some awkward deviations from the story with "ah, by the way I am gay/straight" conversations (it's fine if you can romance them, but if not then it's often just awkward). The cheap alternative (making everyone bisexual) is kind of silly (and still likely requires some extra expenses, in case you need different lines for male and female player). I make (awful) adult games (first as a hobby, and nowadays as a living) and even I don't have EVERYONE as a bisexual in my games (it's just too awkward).

I assume the problem with dialogue options is having time to write them. Sometimes it's also a UI problem (showing tons of options at once can be ugly, and having to scroll to find them can add delays). It feels especially bad if you are behind schedule, and some of the dialogues offer the same or very similar results, so I can imagine why they wouldn't have a dialogue choice for everyone.

From what I read, Activision actually pumped a decent amount of money into the project, and milestones were missed a lot of times, before they decided to rush it.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 19, 2019, 11:01:24 AM
Is there a record of the content they wanted in the game and was cut (and for what reason)?

For that I would suggest to check the end of the Unofficial Patch readme, where I list all the stuff that I restored in the plus version, and all the other stuff that hasn't been restored but still has info in the game files!

Quote
It's pretty easy in the case blood dolls, with a couple of throwaway lines and a 3d model, you have a new blood doll, but if they wanted something more involved (for example, a whole new ghoul is already a bit of an investment), that does become something to consider.

Speaking of which, the male blood doll that I restored to the Red Dragon was mentioned in the files, but who knows why it was never finished? I had to improvise using an alternate Tong model and unused lines of another chinese character. I guess they never did a voice-over for it!

Quote
From what I read, Activision actually pumped a decent amount of money into the project, and milestones were missed a lot of times, before they decided to rush it.

Yes, but if I remember correctly milestones were missed due to Valve delaying HL2 over and over because of Steam, so Troika had an unused Source engine to work with.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 19, 2019, 12:00:53 PM
snip

I was hoping more for a post-mortem by one or more developers. Not that the readme isn't plenty interesting, though.

Yeah, using an incomplete source engine caused a lot of problems. It probably slowed down development considerably.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 12:41:31 PM
snip

I was hoping more for a post-mortem by one or more developers. Not that the readme isn't plenty interesting, though.

Yeah, using an incomplete source engine caused a lot of problems. It probably slowed down development considerably.

Most of my information and impressions regarding this is based on what I read many years ago in the original forums, and also what I watched in that current interview I linked to earlier in this thread.  Not so much about LGBT characters for the video interview aspect, but that ActiVision gave Troika a lot of problems and headaches.   Its pretty clear that Brian Mitsoda is not a huge fan of working with ActiVision.  He didn't come right out and say "THEY SUCK!" but you can tell he feels a certain type of way about them and their involvement with the original game. 

As for LGBT content, if I said "LGBT characters" in my previous posts, I misspoke, as that is not exactly what I meant.  This wasn't really a game about sexual orientation one way or the other (though their happened to be straight and gay characters), so I don't mean like someone walking around saying "Hey, I'm gay!"  I just mean equal opportunity seduction and ghoulification, really.  Or maybe the option of same sex siring (one of the reasons I love the Plus Patch as it is now).  Or that interaction with Tommy Flayton.  Our choices in that interaction were very limited.  My character as I envisioned him in my head wouldn't have acted creeped out by Tommy or then made excuses to get the heck out of there first chance he got once he completed his mission goal.  He would have seduced Tommy into being his blood doll and not just into changing his review.  But we were given no agency to do that.  This isn't just about wishing for same sex male content either, but content straight female gamers might appreciate as well. 

Anyway, I in no way intend to convert this topic into a thread about the merits of including LGBT content.  We already have a couple of those (the latest of which is here: https://forums.planetvampire.com/off-topic/if-this-is-what-i-think-it-is/).  But it is definitely one of the various things I would like to see improved upon with the sequel. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Zanderat on April 19, 2019, 01:06:33 PM
I have always thought vampires had no gender.  So, it really doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 19, 2019, 02:25:50 PM
I have always thought vampires had no gender.  So, it really doesn't matter.

It would be an interesting thing to discuss within the game, though it mostly seems like they do, given how many identify as male or female. Maybe sexuality is what's really out of the picture... unless you're Jeanette.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 02:50:38 PM
I have always thought vampires had no gender.  So, it really doesn't matter.

It would be an interesting thing to discuss within the game, though it mostly seems like they do, given how many identify as male or female. Maybe sexuality is what's really out of the picture... unless you're Jeanette.

Sexuality isn't totally out of the picture, they rely on sexuality to get what they want after all, if they use abilities like "Seduction". 

That being said, its also not out of the picture at all for thin bloods.  They can have sex drives and can have sex, they can even produce Dhampir (half vampires) with mortals.  And as a thin blood is how our character starts out in Vtmb2 (I am guessing later on legal diablerie may come into play).  So there is absolutely no reason for sex or sexuality to be a non-issue in the sequel, at least at first. 

Additionally, there seems to be ongoing debate as to whether or not full blooded vampires want to have sex and how the desire to do that manifests. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/8hhjy2/make_a_ruling_vampires_and_sexual_intercourse/

There seems to be agreement that it CAN happen, using the blood pool and the "Blush of Life".  The Blush of Life causes the vampire's body to "function as if it were alive" after all.  Hence...sex is possible.  But it requires the spending of blood points.  So its not necessarily just a "Jeanette" thing even for full vampires.

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Pool
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: El_Gostro on April 19, 2019, 03:10:16 PM
I was going to note that there seems to be an obsession with sex in these discussions but then my Gym bro Siddharta dropped by and after fist bumping he was all like "Brah, it's all about getting laid,how ya think I got to Nirvana?"
And I said "But this is a game about vampires and the ruleset-" and then my mate smacked me and told me to stop the nerdy shit,he then smacked a girl's bottom while she was walking in the threadmill and came back and told me to get on pumping or leave bitching. Afterwards this guy who always skips leg day but has a huge mustache asked for this forum's url because he wanted to know if BL2 was gonna be mod friendly but we saw him do a backup of the bring the tissues thread and then I caught up with my duolingo lessons but siddartha wanted to show me some awful duolingo lesson reminders memes and then the wifi fell and then I came back home but the message was still saved in the posting window and now I was wondering who was it that first came with the concept of nofap as despite the fact that fap would explicitly refer to masturbation it seems that in this particular instance when its attached to the negative prefix it also encompasses sex which isn't exactly masturbation although arguments could be made when condoms come into use as the exchange of bodily fluids is at the very least reduced and anyway, vaginal condoms are very strange contraptions - I ask myself how effective they are and if the users find it uncomfortable and if that would explain why they are not readily available in most general goods establishments... :chinscratch:
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 19, 2019, 03:25:31 PM
snip

Damn, I must have missed that part. Given the known history of the development, it's hard to completely blame Activision, although there might be more going on underneath (as it often happens).

I assumed that having LGBT friendly option would ultimately mean LGBT NPCs. If you are a man and you try to seduce a man, does it work if they are not attracted to men normally? I mean, if you play as a girl, you can try seduction in the Giovanni mansion on another girl, and get a negative answer, so I assume the target sexual orientation matters.

When talking about giving more options, there are always costs and time to consider, but yeah, it would be nice to have some variety, as well as having more possible replies (I played more as a female vampire, so I didn't remember Flayton's reaction or yours as the player, I must admit), not just for seduction-related content, obviously.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 19, 2019, 03:28:04 PM
I have always thought vampires had no gender.  So, it really doesn't matter.

I think vampires are the same after and before the embrace, same mind then same mentality.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 04:28:28 PM
I was going to note that there seems to be an obsession with sex in these discussions

VtmB part one:  Big, bouncy jello tits, porn stores, strip clubs, peep shows, naughty school girl outfits to show off big bouncy jello tits, sexy girly posters as rewards, possible sex with Jeanette, possible sex with Romero or grabbing him a prostitute, etc.  I don't think its so outlandish, obsessive or absurd to discuss sex with regard to this franchise at all.  I think its fairly on theme.


snip
I assumed that having LGBT friendly option would ultimately mean LGBT NPCs. If you are a man and you try to seduce a man, does it work if they are not attracted to men normally? I mean, if you play as a girl, you can try seduction in the Giovanni mansion on another girl, and get a negative answer, so I assume the target sexual orientation matters.

There is only one female in the entire game that I know of that rejects the seduction attempts of a female vampire.  Every single female potential blood doll in the game does not.  If we are gonna go with that level of bisexuality in the game for females, why not for males? Who would it hurt?  The precedence has been set and if you don't want to use seduction on a man, you don't have to.  But it wouldn't mean you or your PC were gay if you did.  Its a means to an end after all.  A way to get some nourishment, not a way to get some D*.

I have wondered myself if the sexuality of the potential blood doll should matter.  How mystical or metaphysical IS the seduction discipline?  If you can use domination or dementation on nearly anybody, why not seduction?  Some will be more resistant to it to vampires of a sex they aren't normally attracted to, like the girl at the Giovanni mansion or Bryan the beach house thug, just as some are more resistant to domination.  Does that mean it hinges on the sexual orientation of the victim?  To some extent at least, but what about those who are more powerful in their disciplines?  Its something I wonder about.  I really don't know.  In the end however, I see it as a moot point.  The precedence for an inordinate amount of bisexual blood dolls and a bisexual ghoul has already been set for this franchise regardless.

 *(though if I were a thin blood with high seduction I might use it that way lol)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 19, 2019, 04:38:24 PM
I have wondered myself if the sexuality of the potential blood doll should matter.  How mystical or metaphysical IS the seduction discipline?  If you can use domination or dementation on nearly anybody, why not seduction?  Some will be more resistant to it to vampires of a sex they aren't normally attracted to, like the girl at the Giovanni mansion or Bryan the beach house thug, just as some are more resistant to domination.  Does that mean it hinges on the sexual orientation of the victim?  To some extent at least, but what about those who are more powerful in their disciplines?  Its something I wonder about.  I really don't know.  In the end however, I see it as a moot point.  The precedence for an inordinate amount of bisexual blood dolls and a bisexual ghoul has already been set for this franchise regardless.

The thing here is that Seduction isn't a discipline per se. If you are seducing someone it's because you have the skill to do so, which in and of itself is the resulting process of your appearence and your talent for subterfuge (is it a talent in VTMB?). Nevertheless, it's not a power per se, but an ability that you could very well use when you were a human.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Ghanima_Atreides on April 19, 2019, 04:42:23 PM

I have wondered myself if the sexuality of the potential blood doll should matter.  How mystical or metaphysical IS the seduction discipline?  If you can use domination or dementation on nearly anybody, why not seduction?  Some will be more resistant to it to vampires of a sex they aren't normally attracted to, like the girl at the Giovanni mansion or Bryan the beach house thug, just as some are more resistant to domination.  Does that mean it hinges on the sexual orientation of the victim?  To some extent at least, but what about those who are more powerful in their disciplines?  Its something I wonder about.  I really don't know.  In the end however, I see it as a moot point.  The precedence for an inordinate amount of bisexual blood dolls and a bisexual ghoul has already been set for this franchise regardless.

 *(though if I were a thin blood with high seduction I might use it that way lol)

I think at least to some extent vampiric disciplines (but those are different from seduction, which I interpreted as someone being especially charming and good with words, not necessarily something supernatural) like Presence and Dominate will overrule the target's 'default' orientation. An example of this is Hannah, the escort girl who ran afoul of Jezebel Locke; she says that she's not "usually into, you know, women" but that she simply couldn't help being incredibly drawn to her. Since Jezebel uses Presence in combat, I assume that is what she used on her as well...

As for plain seduction however, I don't see that as metaphysical or mystical (please tell me if I'm wrong but from what I know of the lore, there is no seduction Discipline as such), and shouldn't affect targets of incompatible orientations. Then again blood dolls are addicted to the feel of the Kiss, and like other junkies, they might not care very much who does it and what they have to do to get it, even if they are not, strictly speaking, attracted to that particular vampire.


EDIT: Ah, ninja'd by Highwayman667 :P
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Wesp5 on April 19, 2019, 05:13:16 PM
I was hoping more for a post-mortem by one or more developers.

There is a little bit by Tim Cain in the link below, but nothing concrete on what was cut:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lroZsP4zyIYC&pg=PA102
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 07:29:23 PM
The thing here is that Seduction isn't a discipline per se. If you are seducing someone it's because you have the skill to do so, which in and of itself is the resulting process of your appearence and your talent for subterfuge (is it a talent in VTMB?). Nevertheless, it's not a power per se, but an ability that you could very well use when you were a human.

OK so its not exactly a discipline, its a "feat".  Are you sure that it has nothing to do with your vampire powers though?  Why after turning can we add points to all of the various required traits that lead up to being able to use it? 

God, that is *really* boring if its unrelated to our vampire gifts.  lol  Vampires are always supposed to have an unnatural sexiness about them, an unnatural draw. 

An example of this is Hannah, the escort girl who ran afoul of Jezebel Locke; she says that she's not "usually into, you know, women" but that she simply couldn't help being incredibly drawn to her. Since Jezebel uses Presence in combat, I assume that is what she used on her as well...

You actually make a good point here though, despite being "ninja'd".  This is an example of somebody going outside their normal orientation and being turned on by a vampire of the sex they aren't normally into.  I would imagine that "presence" can actually help with the Seduction feat.  In that case there is evidence right there that with a little supernatural push, you can seduce people who wouldn't normally be into you, don't you think?  So long as you have that extra supernatural push.

That being said, this is all very interesting to discuss, and I certainly wouldn't hate it if your vampiric powers helped you seduce people who might not normally be attracted to you, but I would like to reiterate, for the record, that my wish isn't necessarily that we can suddenly seduce anyone no matter what.  Just that the pool of available choices has greater variety in the next game than last time 'round. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Ghanima_Atreides on April 19, 2019, 07:41:06 PM
Well I assume we are able to invest points in those things because it's a game and it requires a system of progression and some freedom in creating a certain type of character.  Similar to other things: are all vampires naturally good hackers? I don't think so. :P

I also don't think VTM vampires are all sexy (despite the fact that players often like their characters to be so). There are some who are, of course, like the Toreador, but even in their case there are exceptions (Isaac comes to mind) and many are average or even fearsome/feral looking or just unnerving (and I'm not talking about the Nosferatu). Brujah, Gangrel, Tremere to name a few aren't a collection of supermodels. They are as varied as the humans they used to be and many sires don't look for physical attractiveness as a main criteria for Embrace.

Quote
I would imagine that "presence" can actually help with the Seduction feat.  In that case there is evidence right there that with a little supernatural push, you can seduce people who wouldn't normally be into you, don't you think?  So long as you have that extra supernatural push.

I believe so, yes. Presence is all about manipulating the emotions of others, so this would mesh wonderfully with seduction (or instilling fear).

People under the effects of Blood Bonds might experience a similar thing especially if encouraged, since the profound love it instills could become confused with attraction. I had a story going on about this and the pitfalls of ghouldom.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 08:04:12 PM
I also don't think VTM vampires are all sexy

Oh of course not, I agree with you 100%  But the Toreador and the Ventrue, in my mind, would be sexy vamps.  And apparently the designers of VtmB seemed to think that the Malkavians could be sexy as well.  I mean, big time.  lol 

Tremere to name a few aren't a collection of supermodels.

I DO beg to differ here though.  lol  I thought that the male Tremere vampire was actually the sexiest of the male vampire models, with the Ventrue coming in second.  I wasn't especially entranced with the male Toreador, I must admit.  For that reason I have never played a Toreador.  I wish we could do a model swap with the Tremere. 

Here is a take on the male Tremere by a friend of mine, AlienSlof, that I have always thought captured the sexy essence of the character.  Her modern day "Basil the Bastard".   

 (http://www.slofslair.co.uk/uploads/picture/image/75/large/large_MaleTremere.jpg)
http://www.slofslair.co.uk/news


Quote
I would imagine that "presence" can actually help with the Seduction feat.  In that case there is evidence right there that with a little supernatural push, you can seduce people who wouldn't normally be into you, don't you think?  So long as you have that extra supernatural push.

I believe so, yes. Presence is all about manipulating the emotions of others, so this would mesh wonderfully with seduction (or instilling fear).

I agree!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Ghanima_Atreides on April 19, 2019, 08:13:05 PM

Tremere to name a few aren't a collection of supermodels.

I DO beg to differ here though.  lol  I thought that the male Tremere vampire was actually the sexiest of the male vampire models, with the Ventrue coming in second.  I wasn't especially entranced with the male Toreador, I must admit.  For that reason I have never played a Toreador.  I wish we could do a model swap with the Tremere. 

Here is a take on the male Tremere by a friend of mine, AlienSlof, that I have always thought captured the sexy essence of the character.  Her modern day "Basil the Bastard".   



Well, I didn't mean to imply there are NO attractive Tremere (there certainly are, and that drawing captures it well!), just that as a clan, there probably are quite a few average people in it too, since it's not what they primarily look for in a childe. I mean, look at Strauss - he isn't ugly by any means, but not what I'd call a heartthrob either.  My Tremere girl is a computer whiz with a secret interest in the arcane, shocking pink hair and who dresses in casual jeans and T shirts. Pretty enough but not a major beauty. That's what my Torrie is. ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/XEPdxdD.jpg)

BTW swapping the Toreador for the Tremere model would be quite easy, if you need help let me know.

Also, AlienSlof! <3 I don't know her personally but she plays many of the games I like and I know her mods well, hehe.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: El_Gostro on April 19, 2019, 08:30:36 PM
Of course it all makes sense now!

All Vampires get a complimentary copy of the mystery method upon embrace, except for nossies who get a copy of Letters from Prison. :haw:
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 09:11:01 PM

Tremere to name a few aren't a collection of supermodels.

I DO beg to differ here though.  lol  I thought that the male Tremere vampire was actually the sexiest of the male vampire models, with the Ventrue coming in second.  I wasn't especially entranced with the male Toreador, I must admit.  For that reason I have never played a Toreador.  I wish we could do a model swap with the Tremere. 

Here is a take on the male Tremere by a friend of mine, AlienSlof, that I have always thought captured the sexy essence of the character.  Her modern day "Basil the Bastard".   



Well, I didn't mean to imply there are NO attractive Tremere (there certainly are, and that drawing captures it well!), just that as a clan, there probably are quite a few average people in it too, since it's not what they primarily look for in a childe. I mean, look at Strauss - he isn't ugly by any means, but not what I'd call a heartthrob either.  My Tremere girl is a computer whiz with a secret interest in the arcane, shocking pink hair and who dresses in casual jeans and T shirts. Pretty enough but not a major beauty. That's what my Torrie is. ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/XEPdxdD.jpg)

BTW swapping the Toreador for the Tremere model would be quite easy, if you need help let me know.

Also, AlienSlof! <3 I don't know her personally but she plays many of the games I like and I know her mods well, hehe.

Thanks, that would be cool!

Yes, I am a BIG fan of Slof's mods.  I was an avid user of her mods years before I got to chatting with her online in PMs and things.  Sadly its been a good while since I have had contact with her.  The last forum she and I both belonged to kind of closed up shop for the most part, Lady Morraine's "Hall of Torque".  It does still exist, but in a very diminished form, it no longer hosts mods or images and it was once one of the sites Slof used to host her mods. It was also known for hosting the ATLAS male body mod by VectorPlexus for Skyrim once upon a time, and it kind of was where Schlongs of Skyrim was born. It also used to be the place to go if you wanted to know where to find male themed mods for Skyrim.  Sadly, all that is no longer the case.   Slof seems to have retired from modding for the most part.  She had some talented protiges though and inspired still other talented modders, and I hope they continue that work with the next TES game. 

Your character is awesome btw.  I always edit my Ventrue to have black hair like Dracula.  lol 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 19, 2019, 11:11:44 PM
Well I assume we are able to invest points in those things because it's a game and it requires a system of progression and some freedom in creating a certain type of character.  Similar to other things: are all vampires naturally good hackers? I don't think so. :P

I also don't think VTM vampires are all sexy (despite the fact that players often like their characters to be so). There are some who are, of course, like the Toreador, but even in their case there are exceptions (Isaac comes to mind) and many are average or even fearsome/feral looking or just unnerving (and I'm not talking about the Nosferatu). Brujah, Gangrel, Tremere to name a few aren't a collection of supermodels. They are as varied as the humans they used to be and many sires don't look for physical attractiveness as a main criteria for Embrace.

Quote
I would imagine that "presence" can actually help with the Seduction feat.  In that case there is evidence right there that with a little supernatural push, you can seduce people who wouldn't normally be into you, don't you think?  So long as you have that extra supernatural push.

I believe so, yes. Presence is all about manipulating the emotions of others, so this would mesh wonderfully with seduction (or instilling fear).

People under the effects of Blood Bonds might experience a similar thing especially if encouraged, since the profound love it instills could become confused with attraction. I had a story going on about this and the pitfalls of ghouldom.

In the pen and paper game, which I've been watching a hundred hours or more of over the past few months, you do add your Presence dice into your social rolls, as I recall, while you have it active. So you might have Manipulation + Persuasion + Presence for your number of dice and the number of successes (dice > 5) is compared against the difficulty set by the GM and if you meet or beat it, you're successful (and often varying degrees of success depending on just how much you beat the threshold by).
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 19, 2019, 11:38:07 PM
In the pen and paper game, which I've been watching a hundred hours or more of over the past few months, you do add your Presence dice into your social rolls, as I recall, while you have it active. So you might have Manipulation + Persuasion + Presence for your number of dice and the number of successes (dice > 5) is compared against the difficulty set by the GM and if you meet or beat it, you're successful (and often varying degrees of success depending on just how much you beat the threshold by).

Ah nice, thanks for the info.  So I conclude that elements of vampiric power do go into the Seduction Feat or at least CAN should the vampire so choose.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 20, 2019, 01:31:24 AM
Ah nice, thanks for the info.  So I conclude that elements of vampiric power do go into the Seduction Feat or at least CAN should the vampire so choose.

Oooookkkk... now that seems a bit convoluted.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 20, 2019, 03:57:41 AM
Ah nice, thanks for the info.  So I conclude that elements of vampiric power do go into the Seduction Feat or at least CAN should the vampire so choose.

Oooookkkk... now that seems a bit convoluted.

How so?  I think its pretty straight forward. 

From the Fandom Wiki:  "Many Presence powers can be used upon large groups of people at once and transcend virtually all boundaries of gender, race, religion, class, and supernatural status. " https://vtmb.fandom.com/wiki/Presence

As was pointed out, Jezebel Locke was able to draw a female to her ostensibly for a sexual encounter that was not normally into females. 

In what way is that convoluted?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 20, 2019, 04:23:10 AM
In the pen and paper game, which I've been watching a hundred hours or more of over the past few months, you do add your Presence dice into your social rolls, as I recall, while you have it active. So you might have Manipulation + Persuasion + Presence for your number of dice and the number of successes (dice > 5) is compared against the difficulty set by the GM and if you meet or beat it, you're successful (and often varying degrees of success depending on just how much you beat the threshold by).

Ah nice, thanks for the info.  So I conclude that elements of vampiric power do go into the Seduction Feat or at least CAN should the vampire so choose.

Really, it makes sense.  Presence is kind of like the vampire appears to the human as her favorite rock star making her into a kind of groupie.  In that state, a little grooming and well placed words would do the trick that might not have worked otherwise. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 20, 2019, 04:41:57 AM
You talked about mods done by Slof but I couldn't find any (except for other games)....
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 20, 2019, 04:46:11 AM
In the pen and paper game, which I've been watching a hundred hours or more of over the past few months, you do add your Presence dice into your social rolls, as I recall, while you have it active. So you might have Manipulation + Persuasion + Presence for your number of dice and the number of successes (dice > 5) is compared against the difficulty set by the GM and if you meet or beat it, you're successful (and often varying degrees of success depending on just how much you beat the threshold by).

Ah nice, thanks for the info.  So I conclude that elements of vampiric power do go into the Seduction Feat or at least CAN should the vampire so choose.

Really, it makes sense.  Presence is kind of like the vampire appears to the human as her favorite rock star making her into a kind of groupie.  In that state, a little grooming and well placed words would do the trick that might not have worked otherwise.

Yeah, in V5, you can activate Awe for free, which makes everyone want to look at you and makes them more interested by you and pay attention to you moreso. Another is Daunt, which is kinda the opposite. It gives you a scary/disconcerting presence that makes people not want to look at you and avoid you/obey you. It's just a small bonus, though, since it's free. The bigger bonuses are specific abilities and they cost a rouse check (50% chance of increasing your hunger).

Speaking of Hunger...I wonder if they'll use a blood point system like in Bloodlines and older VtM, as opposed to the new Hunger system. The new system is a 50% chance for each ability to raise hunger, and your hunger is always at 1 unless you've murdered someone by feeding recently. Once your hunger hits 5, you lose control of yourself (hunger frenzy) and go feed on anyone, typically draining them to death and risk masquerade breaches, etc. It sounds like this would turn a more action-oriented game like Bloodlines 2 into a save scum adventure (failed my rouse check? Reload. Passed three times in a row so that all my abilities were free? Save.) I think that wouldn't be as fun as blood points in live action game of this nature.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 20, 2019, 06:13:34 AM
Really, it
makes sense.  Presence is kind of like the vampire appears to the human as her favorite rock star making her into a kind of groupie.  In that state, a little grooming and well placed words would do the trick that might not have worked otherwise.

That is my thinking as well. 

You talked about mods done by Slof but I couldn't find any (except for other games)....

I was responding to Ghanima_Atreides who had mentioned playing Slof's mods for other games.  She hasn't made any for VtmB, although I bet she would have had it been feasable for the type of mods she is known for. 


Speaking of Hunger...I wonder if they'll use a blood point system like in Bloodlines and older VtM, as opposed to the new Hunger system. The new system is a 50% chance for each ability to raise hunger, and your hunger is always at 1 unless you've murdered someone by feeding recently. Once your hunger hits 5, you lose control of yourself (hunger frenzy) and go feed on anyone, typically draining them to death and risk masquerade breaches, etc. It sounds like this would turn a more action-oriented game like Bloodlines 2 into a save scum adventure (failed my rouse check? Reload. Passed three times in a row so that all my abilities were free? Save.) I think that wouldn't be as fun as blood points in live action game of this nature.

Is the Hunger system currently being used for the Classic World of Darkness or is it strictly for the Chronicles of Darkness (formerly known as the New World of Darkness)?

I am expecting them to stick with the system they used in part 1, but I guess I could be wrong. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Barabbah on April 20, 2019, 12:10:25 PM
Quote
You talked about mods done by Slof but I couldn't find any (except for other games)....

I was responding to Ghanima_Atreides who had mentioned playing Slof's mods for other games.  She hasn't made any for VtmB, although I bet she would have had it been feasable for the type of mods she is known for. 

With you I was meaning the plural, but still thanks :)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 20, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
Quote
You talked about mods done by Slof but I couldn't find any (except for other games)....

I was responding to Ghanima_Atreides who had mentioned playing Slof's mods for other games.  She hasn't made any for VtmB, although I bet she would have had it been feasable for the type of mods she is known for. 

With you I was meaning the plural, but still thanks :)

OK, you're welcome.  :)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 20, 2019, 09:27:40 PM
Really, it
makes sense.  Presence is kind of like the vampire appears to the human as her favorite rock star making her into a kind of groupie.  In that state, a little grooming and well placed words would do the trick that might not have worked otherwise.

That is my thinking as well. 

You talked about mods done by Slof but I couldn't find any (except for other games)....

I was responding to Ghanima_Atreides who had mentioned playing Slof's mods for other games.  She hasn't made any for VtmB, although I bet she would have had it been feasable for the type of mods she is known for. 


Speaking of Hunger...I wonder if they'll use a blood point system like in Bloodlines and older VtM, as opposed to the new Hunger system. The new system is a 50% chance for each ability to raise hunger, and your hunger is always at 1 unless you've murdered someone by feeding recently. Once your hunger hits 5, you lose control of yourself (hunger frenzy) and go feed on anyone, typically draining them to death and risk masquerade breaches, etc. It sounds like this would turn a more action-oriented game like Bloodlines 2 into a save scum adventure (failed my rouse check? Reload. Passed three times in a row so that all my abilities were free? Save.) I think that wouldn't be as fun as blood points in live action game of this nature.

Is the Hunger system currently being used for the Classic World of Darkness or is it strictly for the Chronicles of Darkness (formerly known as the New World of Darkness)?

I am expecting them to stick with the system they used in part 1, but I guess I could be wrong.

As I understand it, the 1 to 5 hunger system with a 50% chance of increasing hunger was added in V5, which is the current version of the WoD. Granted, it's not the "New World of Darkness," because that doesn't have Tremere and a lot of other stuff the OWoD had. But my GUESS is that Bloodlines 2 will use the OWoD system for the reasons I gave (otherwise it's all just save-scumming until you get good luck on whether or not your hunger increases.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on April 21, 2019, 01:43:02 AM
I guess they could make so that saves can only be done at certain places but, that hasn't gone over well in past games to say the least. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 21, 2019, 09:11:50 PM
I guess they could make so that saves can only be done at certain places but, that hasn't gone over well in past games to say the least.

Yeah, that would be awful. I'm going to GUESS that Redemption did that at one point? They have a save game spot in the haven, but that game would be really annoying to play without the ability to save whenever. The loot is totally randomized and you can end up with absolute trash and get your butt handed to you if you're not well-equipped.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 21, 2019, 09:18:05 PM
I guess they could make so that saves can only be done at certain places but, that hasn't gone over well in past games to say the least.

Well, certain situations could be a more sensible thing. You lose a substantial amount of challenge if you can save at ay point in combat, for example.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 21, 2019, 09:37:22 PM
I guess they could make so that saves can only be done at certain places but, that hasn't gone over well in past games to say the least.

Well, certain situations could be a more sensible thing. You lose a substantial amount of challenge if you can save at ay point in combat, for example.

Yeah but the problem with that is that if you're out of combat, then you just right click (or whatever) over and over to use your insta-kill Discipline, thus starting the combat...and it's over in like five seconds. Then you go "Okay, did my hunger go up?" If yes, load quicksave. If no, then quicksave your progress. So your idea wouldn't work except with like...Celerity, Potence, etc., and since those last a while anyway, they would be the least abused of the powers. It's those rapid-use Disciplines like Suicide, Blood Boil, Theft of Vitae, etc., that would be the culprits and no one would need to save during combat for those anyway because there wasn't really a "fight" in the first place.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 23, 2019, 02:34:49 AM
Yeah but the problem with that is that if you're out of combat, then you just right click (or whatever) over and over to use your insta-kill Discipline, thus starting the combat...and it's over in like five seconds. Then you go "Okay, did my hunger go up?" If yes, load quicksave. If no, then quicksave your progress.

I... don't know. The Mass Effect system was pretty much "Save everywhere... buuut combat" and I think it worked fine; as for quicksaving, if anyone thinks it's fun to save-scum then well, that's obviously their own prerogative.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 23, 2019, 05:42:36 AM
Yeah but the problem with that is that if you're out of combat, then you just right click (or whatever) over and over to use your insta-kill Discipline, thus starting the combat...and it's over in like five seconds. Then you go "Okay, did my hunger go up?" If yes, load quicksave. If no, then quicksave your progress.

I... don't know. The Mass Effect system was pretty much "Save everywhere... buuut combat" and I think it worked fine; as for quicksaving, if anyone thinks it's fun to save-scum then well, that's obviously their own prerogative.

It did work fine, but powers were on a cooldown as opposed to using a resource (i.e. blood) that must be manually replenished by feeding. This is a case of comparing apples and oranges. Also, Mass Effect games didn't let you stealth kill a room full of enemies, and if you can quicksave and quickload until your hunger doesn't go up after each insta-kill Discipline usage, then people will be encouraged to do so. In a video game, the blood pool system works better than a 50% chance system where you lose control of your character after 4 failures.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 23, 2019, 07:56:32 AM
I hope they don't do any goofy save point situations.  I want to be able to save anywhere, just like the original game.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: mdqp on April 23, 2019, 08:39:27 AM
I hope they don't do any goofy save point situations.  I want to be able to save anywhere, just like the original game.

Yeah. This is a single player game, no need to try to be overly zealous with engineering controlled situations. If people want to cheat/save scum/whatever, while I don't expect the game to encourage it, it should leave it to the players.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 24, 2019, 08:05:16 AM
I hope they don't do any goofy save point situations.  I want to be able to save anywhere, just like the original game.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 26, 2019, 01:33:01 AM
People this is 2019. There's no such thing as checkpoints anymore.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on April 26, 2019, 02:01:17 AM
People this is 2019. There's no such thing as checkpoints anymore.

We hope.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 27, 2019, 05:06:04 AM
People this is 2019. There's no such thing as checkpoints anymore.

We hope.

Can't really imagine checkpoints even working on an open-world game... too useless.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 29, 2019, 05:47:20 AM
People this is 2019. There's no such thing as checkpoints anymore.

We hope.

Can't really imagine checkpoints even working on an open-world game... too useless.

I'm sure we'll have autosaves, though, like when we load into other maps. I certainly hope we'll at least have autosaves. Usually they annoy me, but about once every playthrough of any game, there's that one time I quick save and didn't realize something unavoidable was about to happen that would insta-kill me a split second away that I can't dodge or an alarm's about to go off, etc.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 29, 2019, 11:25:06 AM
I'm sure we'll have autosaves, though, like when we load into other maps. I certainly hope we'll at least have autosaves. Usually they annoy me, but about once every playthrough of any game, there's that one time I quick save and didn't realize something unavoidable was about to happen that would insta-kill me a split second away that I can't dodge or an alarm's about to go off, etc.

Autosaves used to be necessary back in the golden age era of RPG's. Nothing like a corrupted save to ruin your goddamn playthrough.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 29, 2019, 10:59:56 PM
I'm sure we'll have autosaves, though, like when we load into other maps. I certainly hope we'll at least have autosaves. Usually they annoy me, but about once every playthrough of any game, there's that one time I quick save and didn't realize something unavoidable was about to happen that would insta-kill me a split second away that I can't dodge or an alarm's about to go off, etc.

Autosaves used to be necessary back in the golden age era of RPG's. Nothing like a corrupted save to ruin your goddamn playthrough.

True dat.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 30, 2019, 02:10:29 AM
True dat.

Hell, I wouldn't even say Golden Age RPG era. I still remember losing almost 50 hours of gameplay due to a corrupted save in Dragon Age: Origins.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 30, 2019, 04:57:49 AM
True dat.

Hell, I wouldn't even say Golden Age RPG era. I still remember losing almost 50 hours of gameplay due to a corrupted save in Dragon Age: Origins.

Yeah, virtually every game in existence that lasts longer than 4-6 hours can cause me epic rage if my save gets corrupted, overwritten by mistake, etc. Time is valuable stuff.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 30, 2019, 05:19:35 AM
Yeah, virtually every game in existence that lasts longer than 4-6 hours can cause me epic rage if my save gets corrupted, overwritten by mistake, etc. Time is valuable stuff.

So only indie games don't piss you off !
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on April 30, 2019, 05:46:47 AM
Yeah, virtually every game in existence that lasts longer than 4-6 hours can cause me epic rage if my save gets corrupted, overwritten by mistake, etc. Time is valuable stuff.

So only indie games don't piss you off !

Ha, they piss me off in different ways! Retro visuals can be nice, but sometimes they're just shoddy. Other times indie games are roguelikes where the dev just makes 2 hours worth of content, cranks the difficulty up to 11, then walks off and collects heaps of money while the masochistic crowd loses their minds with glee. What else? Then there's games that are "artsy" when they're really just weird as opposed to genuinely profound or clever. Oh, and games with painfully pretentious stories/dialog that lack real substance and sometimes heavy-handedly push political agendas can be pretty horrendous.

I wanna say there was one called Event 0 where the questionnaire in the beginning had me bursting out in laughter at the options you're given for your background.

When it comes to gaming, I am incredibly anal about what I like and I don't tend to recommend stuff unless I found it to be quite good.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on April 30, 2019, 05:50:30 AM
Ha, they piss me off in different ways! Retro visuals can be nice, but sometimes they're just shoddy. Other times indie games are roguelikes where the dev just makes 2 hours worth of content, cranks the difficulty up to 11, then walks off and collects heaps of money while the masochistic crowd loses their minds with glee. What else? Then there's games that are "artsy" when they're really just weird as opposed to genuinely profound or clever. Oh, and games with painfully pretentious stories/dialog that lack real substance and sometimes heavy-handedly push political agendas can be pretty horrendous.

Son, you need Oxenfree in your life.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 01, 2019, 04:56:52 AM
Ha, they piss me off in different ways! Retro visuals can be nice, but sometimes they're just shoddy. Other times indie games are roguelikes where the dev just makes 2 hours worth of content, cranks the difficulty up to 11, then walks off and collects heaps of money while the masochistic crowd loses their minds with glee. What else? Then there's games that are "artsy" when they're really just weird as opposed to genuinely profound or clever. Oh, and games with painfully pretentious stories/dialog that lack real substance and sometimes heavy-handedly push political agendas can be pretty horrendous.

Son, you need Oxenfree in your life.

I think I own it amidst my ocean of Steam games. Lemme check. Huh, more than 1,100 games and I don't have it. XD  I might have a key for it on Humble Bundle or something. Is it really good? I'm playing through my heap while I wait for Bloodlines 2 and lose my mind impatiently.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 01, 2019, 07:16:01 PM
I think I own it amidst my ocean of Steam games. Lemme check. Huh, more than 1,100 games and I don't have it. XD  I might have a key for it on Humble Bundle or something. Is it really good? I'm playing through my heap while I wait for Bloodlines 2 and lose my mind impatiently.

It's probably the best indie game I've ever played in my life. Amazing how much fun you can have with a 2D side-scroller in which you don't fight anyone.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 01, 2019, 11:26:55 PM
I think I own it amidst my ocean of Steam games. Lemme check. Huh, more than 1,100 games and I don't have it. XD  I might have a key for it on Humble Bundle or something. Is it really good? I'm playing through my heap while I wait for Bloodlines 2 and lose my mind impatiently.

It's probably the best indie game I've ever played in my life. Amazing how much fun you can have with a 2D side-scroller in which you don't fight anyone.

I'll hafta keep that in mind. Thanks for the recommendation. =)
Title: I’m very upset.
Post by: AnnekeFloorever on May 03, 2019, 04:23:47 PM
Hi,

I’m very new to the community, and came here looking for a new VtM community to talk to.

I wanted to say how extreme Paradox and it’s developers are is extremely worrying. I am cautiously optimistic about this game, however, I really do not think it’s going to succeed.

I loved the original VtMB , I love playing a sexy female vampire (being a gay dude) myself but saying that got me banned off the official Discord for the new game.

Apparently it’s “sexist” to ask for sexy female vampires in the new game , literally this was why I was banned off the Discord.

The Discord has a ton of ridiculous rules and even saying something that is slightly triggering will get you banned. I also witnessed someone off the development team called a friend of mine a “Nazi” for something that was not racist at all.

I also was told to look into Cara Ellison’s writing and what she has said about the upcoming  and original game and none of it sounds good , here is a summary of troubling content from her writing for Kotaku and PC Gamer:

- The original game had bad representation and oversexualization of females and apparently people of colour.
- She actually got Hotline Miami 2 banned in Australia and wrote an article about how sexual violence is not allowed in video games. Even though in the game the scene was tame and you were given a choice to see it or not.
- Malks were too politically incorrect as representations of mentally ill people.

Listen, all this stuff I was reading from Cara was overwhelming and I really doubt the original developers really looked into this that much.

I think Cara looking too deep into the original game was wrong because she wasn’t right about anything in the original VtMB.

I know Mitsoda is the lead writer, but I guarantee if anything he writes into the new game that Cara doesn’t like will not make it into the game .

There is no way this game will be good.

As an artist too, I think the artwork they have shown so far is terrible. The cover art with Beckett lookalike is not good if you ask me, and I think the logo with the white text and infinity sign is so cheesy. :/
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Sabbat_stalker on May 03, 2019, 04:47:00 PM
Hello AF , you're up way past your bedtime aren't you...

I am not a fan of Cara's current work but I believe she is writing some of the side missions so hopefully, her sensibilities will not have a massive impact on the game. I will, however, point out that I think you might be being a tad dramatic about Cara's influence on the game at the end of the day it is Mitsoda who is the lead writer and her boss. I haven't seen much that would show that they are going to overly "politically correct" or compromise on what made the original vtmb so great (in terms of writting) aside  from the punching down comment, hopefully, he merely misspoke.
At the end of the day, we will have to wait and see what the final product looks like and hopefully, it will have mod support so the community can fix any problems we have with it :)

As for the discord stuff well a lot of people are thinned skin and are strangely emotional when it comes to certain topics I would recommend trying to phrase things in the most polite way possible and ignore any idiotic comments including from the devs. This forum, however, is great and pretty tolerant of all opinions as long as you stay respectful.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: AnnekeFloorever on May 03, 2019, 05:06:25 PM
Thank you for your insightful post. I’m just worried because making a Bloodlines sequel is a very risky and tough task.

I’m glad I can be less worried here. Yes , and obviously being respectful should be obvious.

It was just very weird how sensitive and overreactive the official Discord was. A lot of users on there were super childish too.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: mdqp on May 03, 2019, 05:20:04 PM
Some people are worried (I think there are a few reasons to be), but ultimately we haven't seen anything of the game so far, so we are just speculating on what kind of direction the game will actually take. I think it's okay to be skeptical, best case scenario, you'll watch a few youtube videos and get more info, before going for a purchase, and worse case scenario you won't buy the game if it doesn't convince you.

I still think Mitsoda can deliver on the writing, so I am not TOO worried, and (as I mentioned a few times elsewhere) I think we worry more nowadays, because in the past we didn't know much about the developers (social media wasn't a thing, and journalists weren't so dead set on asking political questions). I'd say keep an open mind, while waiting for more info on the actual game to arrive. As long as you don't commit to it before you are sure, you don't have to worry.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 04, 2019, 12:29:25 AM
There is no way this game will be good.

Keep your hopes up. We haven't really seen anything yet.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 04, 2019, 03:26:49 AM
As an artist too, I think the artwork they have shown so far is terrible. The cover art with Beckett lookalike is not good if you ask me, and I think the logo with the white text and infinity sign is so cheesy. :/

There's no way that's Beckett. Smug Kindred dudes with longish hair aren't all Beckett. ;)   His clothing suggests he's either Toreador, Ventrue, Lasombra, or Tremere (most likely one of the first two), while the rose in the pocket of his suit coat would suggest he's of clan Toreador since they're such fans of art and beauty. His "pretty boy" appearance would also suggest he's a Toreador. Moreover, even for a vampire, he looks pretty "whimsically murderous" in his kills, his expression, and how exposed he is (risking a Masquerade violation, etc.).

The best educated guess would suggest that this particular Kindred is a Toreador Antitribu. If you're unaware, Antitribu are effectively members of a clan who are in a Kindred sect that's abnormal for that clan. So Ventrure are almost exclusively Camarilla. However, you can find some Ventrue Antitribu in the Sabbat. Assamite are typically independent or Sabbat, so finding Assamite in the Camarilla would generally be Asssamit Antitribu. Similarly, Toreador in the Sabbat are called Toreador Antitribu. They are very different from Camarilla Toreador.

While Camarilla Toreador usually have a certain sentiment for humans and art that humans would enjoy, Toreador Antitribu, who are either in the Sabbat or independents, are typically serial killers, murdering people and using them as their "canvas" to do their art by cutting pieces off of them, carving into them, torturing them, etc. They are pretty despicable if you dislike inherently evil characters. They're a pretty damn irredeemable bunch.

Anywho, I don't know who that guy is for sure, but I'm certain he's not Beckett. Besides, though Becket is a Kindred, those look to be dead civilians near the Kindred in that art, and Beckett doesn't kill humans for fun in a showy manner.

Lastly, I, too, am concerned about the political correctness looming on the horizon for this game, but I'm trying to be optimistic and hope for the best. Hopefully the publisher and developer will understand the philosophy of "Get Woke, Go Broke." Time and time again, companies decide to "get woke" and the products in question regularly suffer for it. This isn't a statement of what is right or wrong, but simply of what is happening. People are tired of being preached at how to think in their games and they pass on games that want to get real-world-political because many folks want to just have fun instead of feeling like they're being force-fed CNN in their escapist gaming adventure.

Liberals and conservatives have bones to pick with one another, but at least real-world politics in games like the original Bloodlines were either rare or poked fun at both sides. For instance, in the first Bloodlines, it trashes on the Right at times, while some bits of dialog also knock characters (like Damsel) with heavy leanings to the Left. Moreover, the remarks to both sides are pretty playful jabs and don't overwhelm the product or make it feel like a piece of Left or Right propaganda (at least in my opinion).

The concern of Bloodlines 2, however, is where the devs are saying that they have an opinion of what is right or wrong for this game and they're going to make their opinions evident in the game (heavily paraphrasing). Let's just hope they resist the urge to "get woke" because I would love this to be an enjoyable escape from reality that makes a ton of money so we can oodles of clans and quality meaty DLC to play. Or they can go all-in on real-world politics, alienate a significant portion of their fanbase, and potentially go out of business. =/
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 04, 2019, 03:35:30 AM
Seems like this could be combined with the "Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?" thread as its pretty much a rehash of that. 

As I said in that thread, I am taking a "wait and see" approach.  Lets keep the bad juju at bay for now and not call this darkness into existence.  lol

BTW I am a gay dude as well and I am hoping they let us be a sexy gay dude for a change. 

Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 04, 2019, 04:02:56 AM
Seems like this could be combined with the "Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?" thread as its pretty much a rehash of that.

I approve.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: VampireBill on May 04, 2019, 05:31:37 AM

BTW I am a gay dude as well and I am hoping they let us be a sexy gay dude for a change.

Haha, now as an experiment, go on their Discord and see if you get banned for saying *that*. Like how feminists look down on women who dress sexy, but applaud it in gay or trans males. Would it get an overall "NEIIIIIN! Der SEXY ist VERBOTEN!!!!!"? ^_^
Now, we don't know exactly how the OP phrased wanting to play "a sexy female vampire" on there, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt (especially as a gay man), that he didn't go crazy with overly sexualized wording.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 04, 2019, 05:36:51 AM
What the hell is a Discord to begin with ?
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 04, 2019, 05:50:14 AM

BTW I am a gay dude as well and I am hoping they let us be a sexy gay dude for a change.

Haha, now as an experiment, go on their Discord and see if you get banned for saying *that*. Like how feminists look down on women who dress sexy, but applaud it in gay or trans males. Would it get an overall "NEIIIIIN! Der SEXY ist VERBOTEN!!!!!"? ^_^
Now, we don't know exactly how the OP phrased wanting to play "a sexy female vampire" on there, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt (especially as a gay man), that he didn't go crazy with overly sexualized wording.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oxRmGXbquXKz6DNPq/giphy.gif)

LOL YOU go on there and say that as an experiment! 

What the hell is a Discord to begin with ?

Its a chat app for gamers, basically. 

OP, which room were you in when you asked your question?  I'm trying to find it.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: VampireBill on May 04, 2019, 07:16:54 AM
What the hell is a Discord to begin with ?

As far as I can tell, Discord is basically a new AOL chat room where devs can easily ignore/bury questions/statements they don't like because it just scrolls by instead of being regular threads (seemed to be the consensus when Undead Labs killed their forum and switched to a Discord). I really haven't figured out how it's better than a regular forum in any way...
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 04, 2019, 05:34:31 PM
What the hell is a Discord to begin with ?

As far as I can tell, Discord is basically a new AOL chat room where devs can easily ignore/bury questions/statements they don't like because it just scrolls by instead of being regular threads (seemed to be the consensus when Undead Labs killed their forum and switched to a Discord). I really haven't figured out how it's better than a regular forum in any way...

My guess is that it's because the devs can claim they're "responding live with you!" and that sort of PR crap. I would much rather have independent news/YouTubers in small numbers who effectively represent a significant portion of Bloodlines/VtM fans presenting questions voted on by their respective communities. For example, that Outstar girl on YouTube could be one, one person from here could be one, and so on and so forth, so that you have maybe 20 or so people in the chat with the devs, and everyone gets maybe 2-3 questions to ask. If the dev can't answer a question, the community representative will have ranked backup questions.

If everyone can join, then like you said, it's just a fustercluck of questions flying at them and the devs just pick fluff questions that anyone who played Bloodlines 1 could already answer...or your average person could just Google "VtM diablerie," etc. to learn more instead of wasting the precious time meant for obtaining precious information from the devs which cannot be gleaned from anywhere else at present.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 05, 2019, 04:08:04 AM
For example, that Outstar girl on YouTube could be one, one person from here could be one, and so on and so forth

I don't think there's anyone on youtube that loves Bloodlines more than that chick. She's really great.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 05, 2019, 08:18:56 AM
For example, that Outstar girl on YouTube could be one, one person from here could be one, and so on and so forth

I don't think there's anyone on youtube that loves Bloodlines more than that chick. She's really great.

As far as content creators, perhaps! Then again, IndigoStars ASMR is a YouTuber who plays like 30 or so original VtM characters she created with storylines spanning dozens of episodes and she has at least one character in every clan except for Tzimisce, Cappadocian, and...I think that's it. Buttloads of wigs, makeup, etc. She even has a Salubri, though I haven't watched that. She got into it due to playing Bloodlines. I dare say that's some dedication. XD
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Sabbat_stalker on May 05, 2019, 09:39:20 AM
For example, that Outstar girl on YouTube could be one, one person from here could be one, and so on and so forth

I don't think there's anyone on youtube that loves Bloodlines more than that chick. She's really great.

I love that youtuber her enthusiasm is infectious and warms my cold black husk of a heart.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 05, 2019, 05:33:07 PM
For example, that Outstar girl on YouTube could be one, one person from here could be one, and so on and so forth

I don't think there's anyone on youtube that loves Bloodlines more than that chick. She's really great.

I love that youtuber her enthusiasm is infectious and warms my cold black husk of a heart.

Same here. She's really sweet, funny, and quite the gamer. <3
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 05, 2019, 06:19:17 PM
Same here. She's really sweet, funny, and quite the gamer. <3

Great taste too, lot of love for The Witcher on her channel.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: AnnekeFloorever on May 05, 2019, 08:10:04 PM

BTW I am a gay dude as well and I am hoping they let us be a sexy gay dude for a change.

Haha, now as an experiment, go on their Discord and see if you get banned for saying *that*. Like how feminists look down on women who dress sexy, but applaud it in gay or trans males. Would it get an overall "NEIIIIIN! Der SEXY ist VERBOTEN!!!!!"? ^_^
Now, we don't know exactly how the OP phrased wanting to play "a sexy female vampire" on there, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt (especially as a gay man), that he didn't go crazy with overly sexualized wording.


Literally all I said that I want sexy females in the new game.   I loved the look of characters like VV and Jeanette for their scantily clad clothing and exaggerated and features like their big boobs. They not only had beautiful faces, but beautiful bodies in my opinion.

Just even look at drag culture, gay guys love dressing up with huge boobs. And it’s not sexist. I personally love playing as a badass sexy female vampire cause I literally put myself into that character while playing.

I also remember saying , that personally, I wasn’t a fan of the female (she didn’t have a name did she?)  in the Brujah trailer and thought she was unattractive, both personality and looks. That I hope we get to see a Damsel-Type Brujah again cause she was badass and hot. I felt like they overdid how butch and “hardcore” the Brujah character was in the trailer.

Then you literally have other gay dudes in the Discord actually say they want big bulging hot ass stripper guys in the new game. They start going into extremely graphic details of what they want and as an example one user said they hope to have hardcore gay sex scenes and detailed it.

And the mods and developers of the chat said NOTHING.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 05, 2019, 08:18:52 PM
Then you literally have other gay dudes in the Discord actually say they want big bulging hot ass stripper guys in the new game. They start going into extremely graphic details of what they want and as an example one user said they hope to have hardcore gay sex scenes and detailed it.

And the mods and developers of the chat said NOTHING.

To be frank with you, I'm not much of a fan of sexualization of men and women in videogames; the entire thing carries a bad precedent.

Your claim however, is pretty reasonable, specially if there's people that don't get grounded for the same behavior. Write a formal complaint.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Signothorn on May 05, 2019, 09:06:18 PM
I doubt there will be a cash cheat in BL2 like BL1 lol. There will always be a large segment of people who sexualize videogame characters they like. I still love Kazi from VtM: Redemption, and in my younger days, used to watch Luscious Lopez' porn vids and pretend she was Kazi due to the physical likeness. TMI I know, but I mean, there is even hardcore Pisha porn for crying out loud...

NSFW: https://rule34hentai.net/post/view/95197

I don't mind the characters being more modest in the vanilla game, because the theme of the game is about personal horror, not vampire boobies. Players can easily lose immersion if all females look like Venus, Jeanette and VV. People can and will create mods that cater to their various fetishes after the fact, it's just inevitable. In fact, I may even use some. I just want BL2 to hit the tone of BL1 from the personal horror standpoint, with a great soundtrack, and allow as many people to enjoy the game as possible. Right now there are too many people trying to make up their minds based on information they don't have, but what they believe will happen. JMHO. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: MooCHa on May 05, 2019, 09:15:30 PM
Right now there are too many people trying to make up their minds based on information they don't have, but what they believe will happen. JMHO.

Exactly. I'm waiting for it to come out and I will base the game of it's own merits. I'm remaining on the fence at the moment. I'm not getting my hopes up nor am I going to be a negative Nancy.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 05, 2019, 10:33:29 PM
there is even hardcore Pisha porn for crying out loud...

W ... T ... F ... !!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 05, 2019, 11:20:06 PM
Literally all I said that I want sexy females in the new game.   I loved the look of characters like VV and Jeanette for their scantily clad clothing and exaggerated and features like their big boobs. They not only had beautiful faces, but beautiful bodies in my opinion.

Just even look at drag culture, gay guys love dressing up with huge boobs. And it’s not sexist. I personally love playing as a badass sexy female vampire cause I literally put myself into that character while playing.

I also remember saying , that personally, I wasn’t a fan of the female (she didn’t have a name did she?)  in the Brujah trailer and thought she was unattractive, both personality and looks. That I hope we get to see a Damsel-Type Brujah again cause she was badass and hot. I felt like they overdid how butch and “hardcore” the Brujah character was in the trailer.

Then you literally have other gay dudes in the Discord actually say they want big bulging hot ass stripper guys in the new game. They start going into extremely graphic details of what they want and as an example one user said they hope to have hardcore gay sex scenes and detailed it.

And the mods and developers of the chat said NOTHING.

I love drag queens, I find them HIGHLY entertaining, I am a huge fan of RuPaul's Drag Race but I don't want to be one, nor do I tend to play female characters. That is just a personal choice on my part however.  You are correct that there is a huge following of gay men who enjoy doing drag and not just watching it. I used to play female characters in the old days before gay and bi males in video games started to FINALLY be a thing if I wanted to have a character that got access to romantic or flirtatious male affection.   An example would be when I was playing Baldur's Gate II, my character was Ariana, a female sorceress and I made sure I had one hot Mama of an avatar pic.  Also, my first Commander Shepard ever was a femshep.  But having a character that I can genuinely identify with is a lot more fun for me and now that I know what it feels like, it disappoints me more and more when that is not present in a video game that features a lot of flirting or romance.  I was very grateful when Wesp added the "homosexual" history in the plus patch and the bi male blood doll in Chinatown.  And I was thrilled when I found the mod that adds much more male/male flirtation and seduction.  That being said, I think your preferences are 100% valid.  Nothing wrong with them at all.  I don't agree with their decision to boot you.  I wonder if it was some kind of a misunderstanding? 

Now, I recall that you stated that it was supposedly for sexist behavior?   I am not justifying what they did to you, but I am not sure you can classify males talking about males that way as "sexist" since its guys talking about guys?  I don't think you can say "its the exact same behavior" if their perceived issue with you was "sexism".  I think its harder to mistake that for sexism than it is if its a man talking about women that way.  But once again, I want to reiterate that I think they were wrong to give you the boot.  But as I said, I can't help but wonder if it may have been a misunderstanding?  I hope that's all it was and that you can get it cleared up.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 06, 2019, 02:22:40 AM
Now, I recall that you stated that it was supposedly for sexist behavior?   I am not justifying what they did to you, but I am not sure you can classify males talking about males that way as "sexist" since its guys talking about guys?  I don't think you can say "its the exact same behavior"

Concern from the moderators is reasonable to some extent. We're trying as a society to prevent the objectification of people as much as possible, maybe Anneke doesn't have the exact words to describe it, but I believe his concerns are in the right place. I agree with him for example that it is rather unfair to ban someone for objectifying women but not men.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 06, 2019, 03:34:32 AM
Now, I recall that you stated that it was supposedly for sexist behavior?   I am not justifying what they did to you, but I am not sure you can classify males talking about males that way as "sexist" since its guys talking about guys?  I don't think you can say "its the exact same behavior"

Concern from the moderators is reasonable to some extent. We're trying as a society to prevent the objectification of people as much as possible, maybe Anneke doesn't have the exact words to describe it, but I believe his concerns are in the right place. I agree with him for example that it is rather unfair to ban someone for objectifying women but not men.

And in reference to Zephyr's point, if that's why the mods did what they did, that's a broken ideology of "ism"s: The thought that you cannot be guilty of one of the isms if you are a member of the "offended" group. For instance, back in the mid-2000s before I finished college, a professor was "teaching" that black people cannot discriminate toward black people, women cannot discriminate toward women, etc. That's some stupid-ass shit right there. If a black guy says "You know what? I think that every  black person other than me is a damned thief, so I'm never going to hire any black people in my company," that's racism. Same with sexism, if a woman were to say that she won't hire other women because she is heterosexual and likes the ideas of all the guys trying to suck up to her and do nice things to please her, whereas she wouldn't get that excitement from having all women working for her. There's sexism.

I used to be all proud that I had a college degree, but looking back on what they used to teach and especially at what teach more recently, completing college seems more indicative these days of simply having gone through a nice brainwashing. =/
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 06, 2019, 03:53:31 AM
Now, I recall that you stated that it was supposedly for sexist behavior?   I am not justifying what they did to you, but I am not sure you can classify males talking about males that way as "sexist" since its guys talking about guys?  I don't think you can say "its the exact same behavior"

Concern from the moderators is reasonable to some extent. We're trying as a society to prevent the objectification of people as much as possible, maybe Anneke doesn't have the exact words to describe it, but I believe his concerns are in the right place. I agree with him for example that it is rather unfair to ban someone for objectifying women but not men.

I agree.  But I seem to remember that he stated that their complaint was "sexism" and not "objectification".  This is why I'm hoping its a misunderstanding that can be easily fixed. I don't want them banning people left and right for expressing their human sexuality in an adult forum, that's for sure.  There is a difference between objectification and enjoying the human form.  Most of us are designed to be that way.  We shouldn't have to pretend that we aren't, straight or gay. 
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 06, 2019, 03:56:59 AM
Now, I recall that you stated that it was supposedly for sexist behavior?   I am not justifying what they did to you, but I am not sure you can classify males talking about males that way as "sexist" since its guys talking about guys?  I don't think you can say "its the exact same behavior"

Concern from the moderators is reasonable to some extent. We're trying as a society to prevent the objectification of people as much as possible, maybe Anneke doesn't have the exact words to describe it, but I believe his concerns are in the right place. I agree with him for example that it is rather unfair to ban someone for objectifying women but not men.

I agree.  But I seem to remember that he stated that their complaint was "sexism" and not "objectification".  This is why I'm hoping its a misunderstanding that can be easily fixed. I don't want them banning people left and right for expressing their human sexuality in an adult forum, that's for sure.  There is a difference between objectification and enjoying the human form.  Most of us are designed to be that way.  We should't have to pretend that we aren't, straight or gay.

I can see banning people for objectification...like "Man, that woman would make a good footstool. Sex? Pfft, I've got better uses for womanfolk! She can get on her hands and knees and support my feet after a hard day's work, by golly." Or maybe I'm taking "objectification" too literally. ;D
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 06, 2019, 04:05:40 AM
And in reference to Zephyr's point, if that's why the mods did what they did, that's a broken ideology of "ism"s: The thought that you cannot be guilty of one of the isms if you are a member of the "offended" group. For instance, back in the mid-2000s before I finished college, a professor was "teaching" that black people cannot discriminate toward black people, women cannot discriminate toward women, etc. That's some stupid-ass shit right there. If a black guy says "You know what? I think that every  black person other than me is a damned thief, so I'm never going to hire any black people in my company," that's racism. Same with sexism, if a woman were to say that she won't hire other women because she is heterosexual and likes the ideas of all the guys trying to suck up to her and do nice things to please her, whereas she wouldn't get that excitement from having all women working for her. There's sexism.

I used to be all proud that I had a college degree, but looking back on what they used to teach and especially at what teach more recently, completing college seems more indicative these days of simply having gone through a nice brainwashing. =/

To clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest that their reasoning was that its impossible for men to be sexist against men.  I was trying to suggest that perhaps they misunderstood his intent and that perhaps its harder to misunderstand intent in that way if its men talking about men vs. a man talking about women.  I would agree that if they employed such logic it would be utterly ridiculous. 

I can see banning people for objectification...like "Man, that woman would make a good footstool. Sex? Pfft, I've got better uses for womanfolk! She can get on her hands and knees and support my feet after a hard day's work, by golly." Or maybe I'm taking "objectification" too literally. ;D

LOL!!

Personally I think *rash* use of the ban hammer is dumb and their rash use of it on him as he described it was dumb.  I have always detested the "shoot first and ask questions later" approach.  I would like to see them warning people first.  But to your point, I agree.  Disrespectful objectification should definitely be banned from that group.  But expressing an interest in "hot girls" or "hot guys" who dress in sexy ways shouldn't be seen as wrong.  Most of us get turned on by other people at least once in awhile and in his case if they had asked questions before they shot, they would see he wasn't even talking about his sexual desires, he was discussing how he wanted his in-game character to look.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: DarkProphet on May 06, 2019, 04:19:28 AM
And in reference to Zephyr's point, if that's why the mods did what they did, that's a broken ideology of "ism"s: The thought that you cannot be guilty of one of the isms if you are a member of the "offended" group. For instance, back in the mid-2000s before I finished college, a professor was "teaching" that black people cannot discriminate toward black people, women cannot discriminate toward women, etc. That's some stupid-ass shit right there. If a black guy says "You know what? I think that every  black person other than me is a damned thief, so I'm never going to hire any black people in my company," that's racism. Same with sexism, if a woman were to say that she won't hire other women because she is heterosexual and likes the ideas of all the guys trying to suck up to her and do nice things to please her, whereas she wouldn't get that excitement from having all women working for her. There's sexism.

I used to be all proud that I had a college degree, but looking back on what they used to teach and especially at what teach more recently, completing college seems more indicative these days of simply having gone through a nice brainwashing. =/

To clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest that their reasoning was that its impossible for men to be sexist against men.  I was trying to suggest that perhaps they misunderstood his intent and that perhaps its harder to misunderstand intent in that way if its men talking about men vs. a man talking about women.  I would agree that if they employed such logic it would be utterly ridiculous. 

I can see banning people for objectification...like "Man, that woman would make a good footstool. Sex? Pfft, I've got better uses for womanfolk! She can get on her hands and knees and support my feet after a hard day's work, by golly." Or maybe I'm taking "objectification" too literally. ;D

LOL!!

Personally I think *rash* use of the ban hammer is dumb and their rash use of it on him as he described it was dumb.  I have always detested the "shoot first and ask questions later" approach.  I would like to see them warning people first.  But to your point, I agree.  Disrespectful objectification should definitely be banned from that group.  But expressing an interest in "hot girls" or "hot guys" who dress in sexy ways shouldn't be seen as wrong.  Most of us get turned on by other people at least once in awhile and in his case if they had asked questions before they shot, they would see he wasn't even talking about his sexual desires, he was discussing how he wanted his in-game character to look.

Yeah, the world's just getting too damn PC. Better than getting console, at least.
Title: Re: I’m very upset.
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 06, 2019, 04:41:24 AM
I agree.  But I seem to remember that he stated that their complaint was "sexism" and not "objectification".  This is why I'm hoping its a misunderstanding that can be easily fixed. I don't want them banning people left and right for expressing their human sexuality in an adult forum, that's for sure.  There is a difference between objectification and enjoying the human form.  Most of us are designed to be that way.  We shouldn't have to pretend that we aren't, straight or gay.

I agree as well, though sometimes the line can be rather thin. A recent example came up with the "Bikini Ninja" controversy from MK11. A lot of people complained that the female characters "weren't sexy anymore"...

... in reality though, for anyone that has two neurons to rub together, that was actual support for objectification.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 06, 2019, 04:45:31 AM
Yeah, the world's just getting too damn PC. Better than getting console, at least.

On one end, it really is.  On the other end, it seems to have swung way too far in the opposite direction.  There doesn't seem to be much of a happy medium at this point in time.  Both sides are their own brand of extremists and that spells bad news for all video gaming.  It sucks away all the fun.  You either have gamers who bitch about the so called "SJWs" who dare want games to be sexy and fun for LGBT folks and female players and then you have the ones freaking out because straight dudes dare want games to be sexy and fun for straight dudes.  Why the %#$@ can't they be both and let everybody be happy?  And if you are a wimp who can't handle violence including violence against women in a violent horror game, then don't play the damned game and certainly don't try to become a writer for the franchise. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 06, 2019, 04:55:36 AM
And if you are a wimp who can't handle violence including violence against women in a violent horror game, then don't play the damned game and certainly don't try to become a writer for the franchise.

It depends though. What function does it serve in the story ? Does it tell a great tale or is it just there for some lame-o's enjoyment ?

Though mostly I do agree, sexuality should be expressed freely and in a healthy manner within videogames, and there's little wrong with that if it's done decently.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 06, 2019, 05:35:16 AM
And if you are a wimp who can't handle violence including violence against women in a violent horror game, then don't play the damned game and certainly don't try to become a writer for the franchise.

It depends though. What function does it serve in the story ? Does it tell a great tale or is it just there for some lame-o's enjoyment ?

Though mostly I do agree, sexuality should be expressed freely and in a healthy manner within videogames, and there's little wrong with that if it's done decently.

Agreed.  I should point out though that by "violence", I meant like using Blood Boil to kill your enemies, or using an uzi to dispatch them, I didn't mean to imply anything like sexual violence. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 06, 2019, 05:58:41 AM
And if you are a wimp who can't handle violence including violence against women in a violent horror game, then don't play the damned game and certainly don't try to become a writer for the franchise.

It depends though. What function does it serve in the story ? Does it tell a great tale or is it just there for some lame-o's enjoyment ?

Though mostly I do agree, sexuality should be expressed freely and in a healthy manner within videogames, and there's little wrong with that if it's done decently.

Sick pleasure is part of the fun of being a Kindred, though. I could leave a good 100 or so guys alive in every playthrough of Bloodlines 1, but I take great delight in murdering them all with my Disciplines and stealth just because I can and it's fun. I almost always Blood Boil that security guard in the first hall of Kamikaze Zen in Chinatown just because it's so overkill, it paints the walls, ceiling, and floor red with his blood, and his rib cage goes bouncing around the place like a pinball! ^.^
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 07, 2019, 01:39:16 AM
Sick pleasure is part of the fun of being a Kindred, though. I could leave a good 100 or so guys alive in every playthrough of Bloodlines 1, but I take great delight in murdering them all with my Disciplines and stealth just because I can and it's fun. I almost always Blood Boil that security guard in the first hall of Kamikaze Zen in Chinatown just because it's so overkill, it paints the walls, ceiling, and floor red with his blood, and his rib cage goes bouncing around the place like a pinball! ^.^

There's still a difference between blowing up someone with a spell in a ridiculous manner and just beating on a woman for fun. One is fun, the other is tasteless... to say the least.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 07, 2019, 02:09:31 AM
Sick pleasure is part of the fun of being a Kindred, though. I could leave a good 100 or so guys alive in every playthrough of Bloodlines 1, but I take great delight in murdering them all with my Disciplines and stealth just because I can and it's fun. I almost always Blood Boil that security guard in the first hall of Kamikaze Zen in Chinatown just because it's so overkill, it paints the walls, ceiling, and floor red with his blood, and his rib cage goes bouncing around the place like a pinball! ^.^

There's still a difference between blowing up someone with a spell in a ridiculous manner and just beating on a woman for fun. One is fun, the other is tasteless... to say the least.

Elongated torture? Nah, I ain't got time for that.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Nanaloma on May 07, 2019, 04:26:17 AM
Amen.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Sabbat_stalker on May 07, 2019, 10:13:42 AM
A good rpg should have the tools necessary to be as sadistic as possible.
It doesn't need to be encouraged (humanity system) or be specifically designed around being sadistic but it would be nice to have the options regardless. I don't see the problem with allowing the player to act as "tasteless" or sadistic as they want on the virtual pixels.
 
What is wrong with just beating on some random npc just for the fun of it or to flex your new powers?
Being able to be an amoral sadistic monster is a good way to show that you are above humans and even if you intend on playing as good player, knowing that you are capable of hurting or killing someone is a good way of making you feel more immersed in the world of darkness as a monster that is no longer human.

Or am I misunderstanding something?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 07, 2019, 10:41:30 PM
A good rpg should have the tools necessary to be as sadistic as possible.
It doesn't need to be encouraged (humanity system) or be specifically designed around being sadistic but it would be nice to have the options regardless. I don't see the problem with allowing the player to act as "tasteless" or sadistic as they want on the virtual pixels.
 
What is wrong with just beating on some random npc just for the fun of it or to flex your new powers?
Being able to be an amoral sadistic monster is a good way to show that you are above humans and even if you intend on playing as good player, knowing that you are capable of hurting or killing someone is a good way of making you feel more immersed in the world of darkness as a monster that is no longer human.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

That's fair, but imagine the media coverage of it about it going "too far." Then some dipshit will be like "Uh...uh...crap, who to blame for my school shooting! It certainly wasn't my own evil ass, or my shitty parents, or the people who've treated me bad all my life! It was that darn vidya game that let me be mean to digital people that aren't real! :O"
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 08, 2019, 12:08:00 AM
A good rpg should have the tools necessary to be as sadistic as possible.
It doesn't need to be encouraged (humanity system) or be specifically designed around being sadistic but it would be nice to have the options regardless. I don't see the problem with allowing the player to act as "tasteless" or sadistic as they want on the virtual pixels.
 
What is wrong with just beating on some random npc just for the fun of it or to flex your new powers?
Being able to be an amoral sadistic monster is a good way to show that you are above humans and even if you intend on playing as good player, knowing that you are capable of hurting or killing someone is a good way of making you feel more immersed in the world of darkness as a monster that is no longer human.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

Well, what if we had more ways to kill an NPC ? Better, gorier decapitations ? What if we could remove limbs with our bare hands or even slicing them with swords ? What if we could drain the blood of our enemies from their eye sockets ? What if we could ACTUALLY rip someone's larynx off ?

Sounds fun, right ? And I bet we could up each other on what absurd levels of violence we could reach.

Now... what if we could rape an NPC ? Would that be fun ? Would that be a sadistic enough way to entertain us ? It would certainly be groundbreaking since, as far as I know, there's no game that allows you to rape anyone. You can kill children in Fallout 2 as far as heinous acts go... but no more, I believe.

Personally, I find that there's a difference between gratuitous over-the-top physical violence and a faithful representation of actual violence that happens in the real world. Now I could certainly quote many reasons as to why the latter should be more carefully represented than the former, but for starters, I'll say that no one wants to see the latter normalized because it's the type of violence that actually happens to many of us. No one will ever die from a thaumaturgical spell... but someone might have to endure being the survivor of sexual assault.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 08, 2019, 12:29:10 AM
No one will ever die from a thaumaturgical spell...

And it's rhetoric like THAT popping up on the Internet which makes the Tremere truly dangerous. :O
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 08, 2019, 02:40:00 AM
And it's rhetoric like THAT popping up on the Internet which makes the Tremere truly dangerous. :O

If there's any clan to fear in the internet. It's those damn Nosferatu.

*Turns around and sees Gary Golden*
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 08, 2019, 06:40:51 AM
And it's rhetoric like THAT popping up on the Internet which makes the Tremere truly dangerous. :O

If there's any clan to fear in the internet. It's those damn Nosferatu.

*Turns around and sees Gary Golden*

Ha, a fine point. I wanna say in V5, Schrecknet is either gone or less commonly used, due to the Second Inquisition managing to hack it, which compromised and/or got many Kindred killed as a result.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Sabbat_stalker on May 08, 2019, 09:37:32 AM
A good rpg should have the tools necessary to be as sadistic as possible.
It doesn't need to be encouraged (humanity system) or be specifically designed around being sadistic but it would be nice to have the options regardless. I don't see the problem with allowing the player to act as "tasteless" or sadistic as they want on the virtual pixels.
 
What is wrong with just beating on some random npc just for the fun of it or to flex your new powers?
Being able to be an amoral sadistic monster is a good way to show that you are above humans and even if you intend on playing as good player, knowing that you are capable of hurting or killing someone is a good way of making you feel more immersed in the world of darkness as a monster that is no longer human.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

Well, what if we had more ways to kill an NPC ? Better, gorier decapitations ? What if we could remove limbs with our bare hands or even slicing them with swords ? What if we could drain the blood of our enemies from their eye sockets ? What if we could ACTUALLY rip someone's larynx off ?

Sounds fun, right ? And I bet we could up each other on what absurd levels of violence we could reach.

Now... what if we could rape an NPC ? Would that be fun ? Would that be a sadistic enough way to entertain us ? It would certainly be groundbreaking since, as far as I know, there's no game that allows you to rape anyone. You can kill children in Fallout 2 as far as heinous acts go... but no more, I believe.

Personally, I find that there's a difference between gratuitous over-the-top physical violence and a faithful representation of actual violence that happens in the real world. Now I could certainly quote many reasons as to why the latter should be more carefully represented than the former, but for starters, I'll say that no one wants to see the latter normalized because it's the type of violence that actually happens to many of us. No one will ever die from a thaumaturgical spell... but someone might have to endure being the survivor of sexual assault.

I believe there is a weird Japanese fighting series called rape fighters.
Going to be pedantic, I would argue that the use of rape in vampire the masquerade doesn't really fit with the theme since they don't really do sex and can't get it up at lower humanity, which you would be if you were being sadistic. I think representing violence faithfully can go a long way into making your game more immersive and gives a strong tone and gravitas to your actions, especially if you are dealing with themes of humanity or ethics (think this war of mine).

 I don't think it's fair to say that having a crime represented in a video game particularly normalises it, murder is represented in media all the time and yet nobody complains or thinks it is ok. The only reason why you don't see rape in video games and in other media as much is that our culture found it more taboo if you were to look at places such as Japan you will be able to observe more rapy games because their culture has a different sense of what is taboo.

To be clear I am not arguing or advocating for the inclusion of raping mechanics in bloodlines 2 :D or any other game for that matter.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 09, 2019, 12:08:27 AM
I believe there is a weird Japanese fighting series called rape fighters.
Going to be pedantic, I would argue that the use of rape in vampire the masquerade doesn't really fit with the theme since they don't really do sex and can't get it up at lower humanity, which you would be if you were being sadistic. I think representing violence faithfully can go a long way into making your game more immersive and gives a strong tone and gravitas to your actions, especially if you are dealing with themes of humanity or ethics (think this war of mine).

I agree that if it serves a function within the story or the mechanics then that's perfectly fine, even more than fine given how it can allow us to reflect about such crimes in a thoughtful and productive manner, which is a thing people don't actually believe that happens in videogames.

Now, if rape (to mention one of these things) was just included for people to indulge on their sadism... then we might have a controversy on our hands to say the least.

I don't think it's fair to say that having a crime represented in a video game particularly normalises it, murder is represented in media all the time and yet nobody complains or thinks it is ok. The only reason why you don't see rape in video games and in other media as much is that our culture found it more taboo if you were to look at places such as Japan you will be able to observe more rapy games because their culture has a different sense of what is taboo.

I think it's more "permissive" in Japan because it's usually performed by abstract caricatures, like the whole tentacle-rape genre. Is anyone ever really going to be "tentacle-raped" by an extraterrestrial creature ? Unlikely.

As for the former, no crime is normalized in the media (most at least) because it's usually meant to be represented with some function or purpose in mind. I believe the same can be done for videogames because the latter are a powerful platform to present engaging and interesting stories.

If it's not done right however, then we end up with garbage like this:

Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 09, 2019, 02:09:46 AM
I believe there is a weird Japanese fighting series called rape fighters.
Going to be pedantic, I would argue that the use of rape in vampire the masquerade doesn't really fit with the theme since they don't really do sex and can't get it up at lower humanity, which you would be if you were being sadistic. I think representing violence faithfully can go a long way into making your game more immersive and gives a strong tone and gravitas to your actions, especially if you are dealing with themes of humanity or ethics (think this war of mine).

I agree that if it serves a function within the story or the mechanics then that's perfectly fine, even more than fine given how it can allow us to reflect about such crimes in a thoughtful and productive manner, which is a thing people don't actually believe that happens in videogames.

Now, if rape (to mention one of these things) was just included for people to indulge on their sadism... then we might have a controversy on our hands to say the least.

I don't think it's fair to say that having a crime represented in a video game particularly normalises it, murder is represented in media all the time and yet nobody complains or thinks it is ok. The only reason why you don't see rape in video games and in other media as much is that our culture found it more taboo if you were to look at places such as Japan you will be able to observe more rapy games because their culture has a different sense of what is taboo.

I think it's more "permissive" in Japan because it's usually performed by abstract caricatures, like the whole tentacle-rape genre. Is anyone ever really going to be "tentacle-raped" by an extraterrestrial creature ? Unlikely.

As for the former, no crime is normalized in the media (most at least) because it's usually meant to be represented with some function or purpose in mind. I believe the same can be done for videogames because the latter are a powerful platform to present engaging and interesting stories.

If it's not done right however, then we end up with garbage like this:



The game, HATRED: the only thing more edgelord-y than all of our Planet-Vampire user names combined!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 11, 2019, 01:46:52 AM
Thinking about this topic... what is the one thing that would turn you off from this game ? What would constitute a significant letdown from the first Bloodlines ?

My biggest concern would be the absence of quests that involved no violence.

I cannot possibly imagine a great RPG without quests where not a single drop of blood isn't shed, and that's BIG want on my list of things for BL2.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 11, 2019, 04:29:41 AM
Thinking about this topic... what is the one thing that would turn you off from this game ? What would constitute a significant letdown from the first Bloodlines ?

My biggest concern would be the absence of quests that involved no violence.

I cannot possibly imagine a great RPG without quests where not a single drop of blood isn't shed, and that's BIG want on my list of things for BL2.

Oh, 100%. There are more than a dozen quests like that in Bloodlines 1, and with Mitsoda at the wheel, I can't imagine we won't have quests like that. Also, if we're "strongly encouraged" to do hand-to-hand combat, I wonder if all enemies we beat using levels of strength that don't go into the realm of Potence-boosts will be unconscious as opposed to dead unless we choose to execute? Technically that would be "without bloodshed" too. =p But yeah, nonviolent is pretty cool.

For me, I want some Hunters other than Society of Leopold and Second Inquisition. Although I'd prefer Second Inquisition to SoL, if only because I am tired of SoL, I would like to see at least a couple of Hunters like Yukie who kill based on merit as opposed to one's existence (i.e. kill vampires who are murdering people sadistically or for political/personal gain all the time as opposed to peaceful-ish vampires). These are interesting and could be dynamically handled based on the player's actions in the game prior to meeting them and the player's humanity rating.

Of course, I'm going to be pissed off if the game makes brawl amazing while firearms are just trash you constantly throw away and can't rely on to use regularly to much success...when in fact unarmed combat is the WORST way for the average Kindred to fight in ACTUAL VtM unless you have Potence or Protean for damage boosts and/or aggravated damage. Guns can do much more damage than your bare fists unless you have those Disciplines and this is just horseshit if they cater to brawl because they like it and leave everyone else high and dry.

I would also be a bit grumpy if the 13 "non-extinct" clans don't all make appearances...so in other words, sure, Ravnos are rare, but can't we have one or two? I'm fine with Salubri and Cappadocians being gone since they're the two clans basically considered extinct...though I'd be happy as a pig in mid to have all 15 clans in this.

It won't piss me off, but I would be happier if they add more playable clans beyond the seven from Bloodlines 1. Lasombra are now being accepted as a "Camarilla clan," and I would love to get to play as one, complete with stuff in the game to make it feel legitimate as opposed to feeling like a mod/fan service DLC.

Another thing that would turn me off would be if it's as buggy as the original. Wesp and a ton of other people had to work their asses off to turn this into the only "really buggy" game that it is now. It's still a hellscape of bugs, but it's nothing like the shitstorm of glitches and other problems that were in the game in its first 1-2 years of release.

I hope the game will have a great mix of comedy and darkness like the original. However, I would like a few more "dramatic"/deep humans in Bloodlines 2. Looking back on Bloodlines 1, almost every human is a comic relief, or a "straight man" (just answers a question or gives you something, etc.), or attacks you angrily. Yukie, Wong Ho, Venus, and a few others had a bit of depth to them, but most were FUN to talk to...but feeling like jokes/stereotypes that the Storyteller just put in there to make the player laugh instead of making the world incredible. Thankfully, Bloodlines 1's Kindred, a few of its humans, and the 10/10 soundtrack and architecture/hub layouts pre-Chinatown won me over, though.

I am very much a perfectionist when it comes to character classes and abilities...so I desperately want the three Thin-Blood powers to be well-suited to certain clans/builds in particular. If one or more of the powers is objectively worse than the others for every clan, then that will really set me off, lol. Logically, it sounds like clans better suited to firearms, like Toreador, might make great use out of Telekinesis, yanking guns away for your own use. Then again, shouldn't we be able to steal guns at Celerity 4 or so since the enemy has no time to react, just run up and grab it in the blink of an eye?

Y'know that's one thing that's bugging me about this game. The new Thin-Blood powers sound EXTREMELY important for mobility. All of them, including telekinesis to access levers, switches, yank grates off walls, or whatever. So we're going to want several points in those for exploration/completion purposes...and then the two clan Disciplines we're going to probably want to max as well. That kinda sucks because as it is, we're losing one of the three clan Disciplines because the devs are cutting one...but the one they're cutting sound like they're going to be the ones we would be more likely to pass on in favor of the other two clan disciplines...meaning we're going to want the two available clan disciplines AND the new Thin-Blood power. That's going to be aggravating unless we get a ton more XP in this game than in Bloodlines 1, since all 3 powers sound like they'll be more important in this game than Bloodlines 1 since each clan kinda has a "dump power" depending on your build. I do NOT wanna give up Celerity or Potence as a Brujah, but then I'll have to pass on the exploration/mobility stuff (unless Potence lets me break all the walls I need to).
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 12, 2019, 01:35:22 PM
shouldn't we be able to steal guns at Celerity 4 or so since the enemy has no time to react, just run up and grab it in the blink of an eye?

I'm just getting wet thinking about this. What a fucking awesome game this will be.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 12, 2019, 02:24:43 PM
shouldn't we be able to steal guns at Celerity 4 or so since the enemy has no time to react, just run up and grab it in the blink of an eye?

I'm just getting wet thinking about this. What a fucking awesome game this will be.

Haha! Well, let's HOPE they do that. I'd be into it. ;)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 12, 2019, 03:34:28 PM
Haha! Well, let's HOPE they do that. I'd be into it. ;)

Unlikely though :'( ... it sounds like an aditional skill one might need, and one that might require animation.

SO BRING IT TO US MITSODA !!!
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 12, 2019, 08:04:53 PM
Haha! Well, let's HOPE they do that. I'd be into it. ;)

Unlikely though :'( ... it sounds like an aditional skill one might need, and one that might require animation.

SO BRING IT TO US MITSODA !!!

They did it (stealing guns out of people's hands while manipulating time) in that kinda-crappy B game, TimeShift back in the 2000s where the gimmicky gameplay was basically all there was, because everything else in the game was very lackluster. So I don't see why they can't do it here. Worst case scenario, they could just have the gun disappear out of the enemy's hands much like most items you pick up in games.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 12, 2019, 10:44:59 PM
They did it (stealing guns out of people's hands while manipulating time) in that kinda-crappy B game, TimeShift back in the 2000s where the gimmicky gameplay was basically all there was, because everything else in the game was very lackluster. So I don't see why they can't do it here. Worst case scenario, they could just have the gun disappear out of the enemy's hands much like most items you pick up in games.

I wonder though... won't we have mentalism for that in the end ?

Fuck... now I gotta choose between that and throwing bats at people.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 12, 2019, 11:56:42 PM
They did it (stealing guns out of people's hands while manipulating time) in that kinda-crappy B game, TimeShift back in the 2000s where the gimmicky gameplay was basically all there was, because everything else in the game was very lackluster. So I don't see why they can't do it here. Worst case scenario, they could just have the gun disappear out of the enemy's hands much like most items you pick up in games.

I wonder though... won't we have mentalism for that in the end ?

Fuck... now I gotta choose between that and throwing bats at people.

Well...you could always use mentalism to pull baseball bats out of enemies' hands and (presumably) use the same power to hurl the baseball bats back at them! I mean technically you'd be "throwing bats," right? ;)

The Chiropteran stuff sounds fun, but the bat swarm basically Nightwisp Ravens from Bloodlines 1, albeit more vampire-themed. The glide ability sounds like the real reason to choose those powers.

It sounds like Firearms characters will be best suited to Mentalism, especially if we throw guns away after emptying the clip, or even after going through a few clips and they break, if since we can have a steady source of guns (I hope) that way.

Oh dude...I just had an idea I think you'll like for Toreador with Mentalism and Celerity with Firearms. Okay, so you use the fifth dot of Mentalism, levitating all the enemies in the combat zone in front of you, immediately turn on Celerity 5, then walk from enemy to enemy, popping each one in the head with a pistol at point blank while they can't react and are held aloft. Deactivate your powers and their bodies come falling to the ground, all dead from headshots that took place within a couple of seconds. :D

That's assuming that if you throw them, it doesn't kill them instantly. If so, skip the previous step...or if they're Kindred, shotgun them in the skulls instead of using a pistol. ^^

I would say that Chiropteran would be great for Firearms characters because you could ride an updraft up onto a rooftop then set up a sniper position to take out your enemies...EXCEPT that the freaking gun will probably break due to the bullshit rules the devs have made up in direct contradiction to VtM rules about guns. SO with that in mind, Chiropteran sounds like it will be awful for Firearms compared to the other abilities.

Nebulation just sounds excellent for any stealth character...aside from those with Obfuscate, in which case it would be pretty redundant, I think.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 13, 2019, 03:04:43 AM
I might get a bit pissed off but... weren't we supposed to be able to turn into actual bats with chiropteran ? Or is the webpage hiding some of the other abilities you get from the disciplines ?

I don't want to fucking "glide". I want to turn into a damn bat !
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 13, 2019, 03:38:38 AM
I might get a bit pissed off but... weren't we supposed to be able to turn into actual bats with chiropteran ? Or is the webpage hiding some of the other abilities you get from the disciplines ?

I don't want to fucking "glide". I want to turn into a damn bat !

Turing into a frickin' bat would be pretty awesome, but the way they describe the ability on the site just makes it sound like we're magically lightweight:

• Glide (Blood Cost: 1) is Chiropteran’s first active power, and can be enhanced by investing in the • • slot. Glide greatly lowers the weight of the vampire’s skeleton and muscle mass to allow them to float on updrafts, reaching otherwise inaccessible areas. In the air, the vampire can swoop into NPC to knock them down, pounce on enemies far below, or use the height advantage to rain down Disciplines from afar.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 13, 2019, 11:38:28 AM
Turing into a frickin' bat would be pretty awesome, but the way they describe the ability on the site just makes it sound like we're magically lightweight:

Meh... might just consider mentalism.

What about stealth though ? Will nebulation do better in that regard. Fuck, the thinblood abilities are too tempting now !
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 13, 2019, 12:02:33 PM
Turing into a frickin' bat would be pretty awesome, but the way they describe the ability on the site just makes it sound like we're magically lightweight:

Meh... might just consider mentalism.

What about stealth though ? Will nebulation do better in that regard. Fuck, the thinblood abilities are too tempting now !

That it will! From the official site:

• Mist Shroud (Blood Cost: 2), Nebulation’s first active power, envelops the vampire with mist for a short time, muffling footsteps and making them slightly harder to notice. In addition, the vampire can partially transform into mist for one invocation to either perform a choking attack on an NPC, or travel through tight spaces. The • • slot enhances these powers even further.


• • • Envelop (Blood Cost: 3), the second active, creates a stationary, swirling cloud of mist that surrounds, blinds and forcefully enters the lungs of NPC that touch it. It and Mist Shroud both can be further improved with the • • • • and • • • • • slots.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 14, 2019, 01:39:28 AM
Fuck... too many choices now. So awesome.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 16, 2019, 04:22:49 AM
I thought this was an excellent video for this topic, well worth a watch. 

Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 16, 2019, 05:49:06 AM
I thought this was an excellent video for this topic, well worth a watch. 



Yeah, Outstar took a great apolitical approach to the ordeal as well. I watched that a little over a month ago, I think, and it did much to assuage many of my concerns. I'm still leery, but no longer horrified.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 16, 2019, 06:19:39 AM
I thought this was an excellent video for this topic, well worth a watch. 



Yeah, Outstar took a great apolitical approach to the ordeal as well. I watched that a little over a month ago, I think, and it did much to assuage many of my concerns. I'm still leery, but no longer horrified.

Fortunately I was never at a point where I was horrified, though I was the teeniest tiniest bit leery, not because of what came straight from the developers and writers about it but because of how people were interpreting their words or going off the deep end over who they hired as writers.  Some of that hysteria started rubbing off on me just a skosh.  But when you reasonably break down what they themselves actually said, like she does in her video, you find yourself, or at least I did, wondering what the big deal is in the first place. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 16, 2019, 12:02:53 PM
I thought this was an excellent video for this topic, well worth a watch. 



Yeah, Outstar took a great apolitical approach to the ordeal as well. I watched that a little over a month ago, I think, and it did much to assuage many of my concerns. I'm still leery, but no longer horrified.

Fortunately I was never at a point where I was horrified, though I was the teeniest tiniest bit leery, not because of what came straight from the developers and writers about it but because of how people were interpreting their words or going off the deep end over who they hired as writers.  Some of that hysteria started rubbing off on me just a skosh.  But when you reasonably break down what they themselves actually said, like she does in her video, you find yourself, or at least I did, wondering what the big deal is in the first place.

I think a lot of us recognized a lot of red flags in the interview which seemed to indicate the game was going to be like Bloodlines 1 after running it through a meat de-flavorizer thanks yo kowtowing to political correctness. Regardless of the reader's political affiliations, anyone not ignoring how the world works is observing the phenomenon known as "get woke, go broke." Take a mostly-apolitucal product, give it a political correctness suppository, then sit back and watch the company hemorrhage money thanks to audience alienation, shifting the focus of the product to a political statement instead of quality, etc.

I, too, want Bloodlines 2 to be successful, and making it politically correct is a great way to try and tank the game's sales.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 16, 2019, 06:56:28 PM
I think a lot of us recognized a lot of red flags in the interview which seemed to indicate the game was going to be like Bloodlines 1 after running it through a meat de-flavorizer thanks yo kowtowing to political correctness. Regardless of the reader's political affiliations, anyone not ignoring how the world works is observing the phenomenon known as "get woke, go broke." Take a mostly-apolitucal product, give it a political correctness suppository, then sit back and watch the company hemorrhage money thanks to audience alienation, shifting the focus of the product to a political statement instead of quality, etc.

I, too, want Bloodlines 2 to be successful, and making it politically correct is a great way to try and tank the game's sales.

These days I don't even know what the term "politically correct" means anymore. I don't think people of any political affiliation likes the term much or the concept behind it. 

I know there are some people that are legitimately worried that some of the meaty flavor of the original game will be taken out of the sequel (and I sure hope it isn't) which is where I know you fall, but I also think there are still others who truly resent the idea of genuine diversity, particularly sexual and gender diversity. 

I know that some people really can't stand it if a game has elements to it that will allow other people with different tastes to have fun in a style that would make them happy even if the presence of those elements won't infringe on the fun of the one who is annoyed by their presence in the game. as Outstar points out.  Apparently the game will allow you, at character creation, to pick your gender pronouns.  I know there will be TONS of people, if this is true, who will roll their eyes, groan and even refuse to get the game because of this, even though they will be able to create the character that THEY want to create.  If they want to be a cis male, they can be a cis male.  That hasn't changed.  But now another subset of human society will be allowed to play the game in a way that they are comfortable with and for my part even though I will be playing as a cis male with "he" and "his" pronouns, its not gonna kill me if the option to choose otherwise is in the game. 

Another thing that will annoy some players is if the game, in addition to having aspects designed to titillate straight males and those who are attracted to gorgeous females will also have aspects designed to titillate straight females those attracted to gorgeous guys.  If the game includes male prostitutes, male strippers, or other guys dressed in sexy ways, this is gonna probably tick some players off.  That's too bad because in real life, straight women have sexual desires and active libidos.  If they didn't, straight men wouldn't ever get laid.  Outstar herself says she hopes she gets to see some man booty in the game.  lol  I am with her on that! 

I just hope that if the game does acknowledge others *in addition to* straight males (not instead of but in addition to), that won't cause the game to "come crashing down" and fail. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 16, 2019, 08:50:15 PM
I think a lot of us recognized a lot of red flags in the interview which seemed to indicate the game was going to be like Bloodlines 1 after running it through a meat de-flavorizer thanks yo kowtowing to political correctness. Regardless of the reader's political affiliations, anyone not ignoring how the world works is observing the phenomenon known as "get woke, go broke." Take a mostly-apolitucal product, give it a political correctness suppository, then sit back and watch the company hemorrhage money thanks to audience alienation, shifting the focus of the product to a political statement instead of quality, etc.

I, too, want Bloodlines 2 to be successful, and making it politically correct is a great way to try and tank the game's sales.

These days I don't even know what the term "politically correct" means anymore. I don't think people of any political affiliation likes the term much or the concept behind it. 

I know there are some people that are legitimately worried that some of the meaty flavor of the original game will be taken out of the sequel (and I sure hope it isn't) which is where I know you fall, but I also think there are still others who truly resent the idea of genuine diversity, particularly sexual and gender diversity. 

I know that some people really can't stand it if a game has elements to it that will allow other people with different tastes to have fun in a style that would make them happy even if the presence of those elements won't infringe on the fun of the one who is annoyed by their presence in the game. as Outstar points out.  Apparently the game will allow you, at character creation, to pick your gender pronouns.  I know there will be TONS of people, if this is true, who will roll their eyes, groan and even refuse to get the game because of this, even though they will be able to create the character that THEY want to create.  If they want to be a cis male, they can be a cis male.  That hasn't changed.  But now another subset of human society will be allowed to play the game in a way that they are comfortable with and for my part even though I will be playing as a cis male with "he" and "his" pronouns, its not gonna kill me if the option to choose otherwise is in the game. 

Another thing that will annoy some players is if the game, in addition to having aspects designed to titillate straight males and those who are attracted to gorgeous females will also have aspects designed to titillate straight females those attracted to gorgeous guys.  If the game includes male prostitutes, male strippers, or other guys dressed in sexy ways, this is gonna probably tick some players off.  That's too bad because in real life, straight women have sexual desires and active libidos.  If they didn't, straight men wouldn't ever get laid.  Outstar herself says she hopes she gets to see some man booty in the game.  lol  I am with her on that! 

I just hope that if the game does acknowledge others *in addition to* straight males (not instead of but in addition to), that won't cause the game to "come crashing down" and fail.

I'm fine with that, though I do hope that characters appeal due to personality rather than only or mostly looks. We spoke of Tali before, and I adore her even though you don't see her body. Her personality is great. Also, my wild gay Zevran adventure was only minimally shameful because I at least liked him personality-wise (and I got an achievement #willgayitupforachievements).

I suppose what I'm getting at poorly is that characters need to be well-written characters. Their sexuality is a secondary or even tertiary quality. However, some characters in games and other media seem to exist for the sheer sake of forced diversity/media virtue signalling brownie points. When the most important and most advertised thing about a character is his/her sexuality, odds are the character is poorly written or unlikable.

I want more Zevrans in gaming and less whomever-that-trans-NPC-was-in-Andromeda-who-was-completely-uninteresting.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: fylimar on May 16, 2019, 08:58:43 PM
I think a lot of us recognized a lot of red flags in the interview which seemed to indicate the game was going to be like Bloodlines 1 after running it through a meat de-flavorizer thanks yo kowtowing to political correctness. Regardless of the reader's political affiliations, anyone not ignoring how the world works is observing the phenomenon known as "get woke, go broke." Take a mostly-apolitucal product, give it a political correctness suppository, then sit back and watch the company hemorrhage money thanks to audience alienation, shifting the focus of the product to a political statement instead of quality, etc.

I, too, want Bloodlines 2 to be successful, and making it politically correct is a great way to try and tank the game's sales.

These days I don't even know what the term "politically correct" means anymore. I don't think people of any political affiliation likes the term much or the concept behind it. 

I know there are some people that are legitimately worried that some of the meaty flavor of the original game will be taken out of the sequel (and I sure hope it isn't) which is where I know you fall, but I also think there are still others who truly resent the idea of genuine diversity, particularly sexual and gender diversity. 

I know that some people really can't stand it if a game has elements to it that will allow other people with different tastes to have fun in a style that would make them happy even if the presence of those elements won't infringe on the fun of the one who is annoyed by their presence in the game. as Outstar points out.  Apparently the game will allow you, at character creation, to pick your gender pronouns.  I know there will be TONS of people, if this is true, who will roll their eyes, groan and even refuse to get the game because of this, even though they will be able to create the character that THEY want to create.  If they want to be a cis male, they can be a cis male.  That hasn't changed.  But now another subset of human society will be allowed to play the game in a way that they are comfortable with and for my part even though I will be playing as a cis male with "he" and "his" pronouns, its not gonna kill me if the option to choose otherwise is in the game. 

Another thing that will annoy some players is if the game, in addition to having aspects designed to titillate straight males and those who are attracted to gorgeous females will also have aspects designed to titillate straight females those attracted to gorgeous guys.  If the game includes male prostitutes, male strippers, or other guys dressed in sexy ways, this is gonna probably tick some players off.  That's too bad because in real life, straight women have sexual desires and active libidos.  If they didn't, straight men wouldn't ever get laid.  Outstar herself says she hopes she gets to see some man booty in the game.  lol  I am with her on that! 

I just hope that if the game does acknowledge others *in addition to* straight males (not instead of but in addition to), that won't cause the game to "come crashing down" and fail.

I'm fine with that, though I do hope that characters appeal due to personality rather than only or mostly looks. We spoke of Tali before, and I adore her even though you don't see her body. Her personality is great. Also, my wild gay Zevran adventure was only minimally shameful because I at least liked him personality-wise (and I got an achievement #willgayitupforachievements).

I suppose what I'm getting at poorly is that characters need to be well-written characters. Their sexuality is a secondary or even tertiary quality. However, some characters in games and other media seem to exist for the sheer sake of forced diversity/media virtue signalling brownie points. When the most important and most advertised thing about a character is his/her sexuality, odds are the character is poorly written or unlikable.

I want more Zevrans in gaming and less whomever-that-trans-NPC-was-in-Andromeda-who-was-completely-uninteresting.

I totally agree - and Zevran is one of my favorite DA characters (right behind Varric). Well-written characters are for me the most important part of the game. I guess, thats, why I do like Bloodlines so much, the characters are all well written, even the ones, I don't like (coughVVcough)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 16, 2019, 09:50:34 PM
I'm fine with that, though I do hope that characters appeal due to personality rather than only or mostly looks. We spoke of Tali before, and I adore her even though you don't see her body. Her personality is great. Also, my wild gay Zevran adventure was only minimally shameful because I at least liked him personality-wise (and I got an achievement #willgayitupforachievements).

I suppose what I'm getting at poorly is that characters need to be well-written characters. Their sexuality is a secondary or even tertiary quality. However, some characters in games and other media seem to exist for the sheer sake of forced diversity/media virtue signalling brownie points. When the most important and most advertised thing about a character is his/her sexuality, odds are the character is poorly written or unlikable.

I want more Zevrans in gaming and less whomever-that-trans-NPC-was-in-Andromeda-who-was-completely-uninteresting.

That trans character was badly done but I think their heart was in the right place.  They fumbled with her.  But other than that character, I can't really think of an LGBT BioWare NPC that has been that badly written.  Oh wait...perhaps Serendipity from the Blooming Rose in DA2 and her counterpart in DAO at the Pearl.  I don't hate that character, as she was a drag queen and I love drag queens.  But I think they could have clarified exactly what she was a bit better because I think some people misinterpreted her and the DAO one as caricatures of trans women even though that's not what they were meant to be.   

I wasn't especially fond of Dethmold from Witcher 2.  He seemed to fit the "depraved homosexual" trope that used to be a major thing in video games, TV shows, comics and movies and that has never been one I have enjoyed much.

I have yet to see a game specifically advertised with "All New Gay Characters!", but I have to admit that if that ever happens I think it might make me laugh out loud.  lol
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 16, 2019, 10:00:12 PM
I'm fine with that, though I do hope that characters appeal due to personality rather than only or mostly looks. We spoke of Tali before, and I adore her even though you don't see her body. Her personality is great. Also, my wild gay Zevran adventure was only minimally shameful because I at least liked him personality-wise (and I got an achievement #willgayitupforachievements).

I suppose what I'm getting at poorly is that characters need to be well-written characters. Their sexuality is a secondary or even tertiary quality. However, some characters in games and other media seem to exist for the sheer sake of forced diversity/media virtue signalling brownie points. When the most important and most advertised thing about a character is his/her sexuality, odds are the character is poorly written or unlikable.

I want more Zevrans in gaming and less whomever-that-trans-NPC-was-in-Andromeda-who-was-completely-uninteresting.

That trans character was badly done but I think their heart was in the right place.  They fumbled with her.  But other than that character, I can't really think of an LGBT BioWare NPC that has been that badly written.  Oh wait...perhaps Serendipity from the Blooming Rose in DA2 and her counterpart in DAO at the Pearl.  I don't hate that character, as she was a drag queen and I love drag queens.  But I think they could have clarified exactly what she was a bit better because I think some people misinterpreted her and the DAO one as caricatures of trans women even though that's not what they were meant to be.   

I wasn't especially fond of Dethmold from Witcher 2.  He seemed to fit the "depraved homosexual" trope that used to be a major thing in video games, TV shows, comics and movies and that has never been one I have enjoyed much.

I have yet to see a game specifically advertised with "All New Gay Characters!", but I have to admit that if that ever happens I think it might make me laugh out loud.  lol
lol Google "gay character news" and I'm sure you will find some stuff. I'm at work or I would check now

EDIT: Okay, yeah, Google "gay characters news games," then Google "straight characters news games" and you will get very different results. By "very different," I don't mean you will get news pointing out straight characters. You will get news pointing out gay characters in celebration, and articles effectively calling for less straight characters. What I find most disconcerting is this notion that gay characters are required for players to be able to "relate" to the character. Um...what? I related to Lara Croft in the Tomb Raider reboot, but I'm not a rich, extroverted adventurer woman. I related to Damsel in Bloodlines, yet I'm not a streetwise communist vampire chick. I related to Tiny Tina in her DLC and her audio recordings (the sad bits), yet I'm not a teenage lesbian girl. I suppose it's impossible for anyone to relate to Marlin in Finding Nemo unless the viewer is a fish...

I have never once in my life related to a character because he or she is STRAIGHT. I either liked the character, or I didn't, and it's based on his or her personality and the character's actions/goals (non-sexual ones). Romance is its own animal, and when it comes to sex, all sorts of crazy shit becomes viable in a video game, regardless of "relatability." I dislike VV in Bloodlines as a character, but would totally have my character sleep with her for a completionist angle and getting more affectionate dialog. If people want more gay sex in games, they need to "man up" and SAY IT. Don't do some bullshit "relatability" argument because it's simply a lie...unless the person is a massive racist, "straight-o-phobe," sexist, etc. and therefore legitimately cannot relate to those characters because of those qualities because of their hatred toward those groups. In those cases, they need to learn to get over their problems instead of saying stupid shit online. :D
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 17, 2019, 12:38:50 AM
I thought this was an excellent video for this topic, well worth a watch. 



I want Damsel so bad in BL2.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 17, 2019, 03:01:02 AM
I thought this was an excellent video for this topic, well worth a watch. 



I want Damsel so bad in BL2.

I would love to see her as well. Since she was like the resident L.A. "right hand" to Nines (Jack comes and goes, so he's more of a visitor), it would make sense for her to "branch out" to other cities and become an Anarch rabble-rousing leader herself elsewhere. Heck, even though 15 years isn't long for a Kindred, she could have gone through some character growth to be a teensy bit less angry/aggressive (albeit with a few outbursts).

If I could only pick one character per hub to get to spend time with in Bloodlines 2...it would be Jeanette, Damsel, Romero, and Yukie.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 17, 2019, 04:18:35 AM

 lol Google "gay character news" and I'm sure you will find some stuff. I'm at work or I would check now

EDIT: Okay, yeah, Google "gay characters news games," then Google "straight characters news games" and you will get very different results. By "very different," I don't mean you will get news pointing out straight characters. You will get news pointing out gay characters in celebration, and articles effectively calling for less straight characters. What I find most disconcerting is this notion that gay characters are required for players to be able to "relate" to the character. Um...what? I related to Lara Croft in the Tomb Raider reboot, but I'm not a rich, extroverted adventurer woman. I related to Damsel in Bloodlines, yet I'm not a streetwise communist vampire chick. I related to Tiny Tina in her DLC and her audio recordings (the sad bits), yet I'm not a teenage lesbian girl. I suppose it's impossible for anyone to relate to Marlin in Finding Nemo unless the viewer is a fish...

I have never once in my life related to a character because he or she is STRAIGHT. I either liked the character, or I didn't, and it's based on his or her personality and the character's actions/goals (non-sexual ones). Romance is its own animal, and when it comes to sex, all sorts of crazy shit becomes viable in a video game, regardless of "relatability." I dislike VV in Bloodlines as a character, but would totally have my character sleep with her for a completionist angle and getting more affectionate dialog. If people want more gay sex in games, they need to "man up" and SAY IT. Don't do some bullshit "relatability" argument because it's simply a lie...unless the person is a massive racist, "straight-o-phobe," sexist, etc. and therefore legitimately cannot relate to those characters because of those qualities because of their hatred toward those groups. In those cases, they need to learn to get over their problems instead of saying stupid shit online. :D

There are of course celebratory articles written about gay characters by people excited at the chance to be able to play them, if I was any good at writing articles I would probably write a few myself.  And the reason you will find that kind of article vs an article celebrating a character's heterosexuality is because somebody excited about a heterosexual character has yet to write such an article.  Maybe nobody gets as worked up about it as some do about LGBT characters because cis heterosexual characters have always been the default, I don't know.  But that's the way its always been and there will always be an abundance of video games that portray heterosexual characters and that's probably never going to change, so maybe nobody has gotten to the point of being super excited enough to write an article about it.  I wouldn't care if someone decided to write one.  I doubt I would read it but I wouldn't begrudge it as long as they didn't insult LGBT people in the process.  My excitement about LGBT characters has never been because I think straight people suck.  To the contrary, I love straight people.  Two of them are why I was born.  ;) 

People are different and people relate to different things.  I am a very romantic person and I am a very sexual person which I am in no way ashamed of or shy about admitting, so I actually do relate to gay male characters better than I do straight male characters.  I also relate to straight female characters better than I do straight male characters and I can assure you that I am sincere in that.  But relate-ability is only partly why I like there to be gay male characters in video games.  I also like them to be in video games because I simply have more fun playing them, period.  I also like sexy guys in my video games and if they will give my male PC a shot, more's the better.    When I play Fallout New Vegas, I go STRAIGHT to the male chain prostitute outfit and a black cowboy hat, and that is pretty much what my PC will be wearing for the rest of the game.  lol  Gives me eye candy to look at while I am playing a game.  For this reason I can promise you that many straight guys DO like to play sexy females.  They have told me this time and time again.  And I say good for them.  I am glad they can enjoy such things.  I think we should all be able to enjoy things that fit with our tastes and preferences.

I think its dumb for some people to call for fewer straight characters in games, to me that is rather radical.  I have never heard of that before, but I trust you when you say that you have come across that.  By that same token there are those who say there should be NO LGBT characters whatsoever in video games.  There are a LOT of people like that in fact.

I will say that if I were to tailor a game myself I would probably create a game where all romance options were playersexual if I had the time and resources to do so.  Sometimes people long for what they cannot have which is why mods will pop up that make Cullen bisexual, Dorian straight and Sera bisexual in Dragon Age Inquisition.  Perhaps one of these days I will try the Bisexual Cullen mod, I am not sure.  I may rather romance him with a straight female character as is the canon storyline, though I have read that they had originally intended to make him bi, but time constraints stopped that from happening and incidentally I have also read that Dorian was originally going to be bi as well, though that would have killed part of his great storyline regarding his father.  I was pleasantly surprised to learn that they actually went with the gay approach rather than the straight approach when they decided to cancel someone's bisexuality as normally they make 'em straight when that happens.

Now, can I have fun with a game that doesn't have gay or bi male content?  Yes, I have pretty much HAD to for a very long time.  I wouldn't be the gamer that I am if I never enjoyed such storylines.  Although back in the day if there was a romanceable straight male my character would be a female.  Baldur's Gate II's Anomen was the very first romanceable male character I ever encountered in a video game and yes, my female sorceress Ariana definitely jiggled his codpiece.  But if a straight female character was not an option and only a straight male character was, I can still have fun. My deep love of the Witcher series is a testament to that fact.  Can I find things to relate to other than their sexuality?  Heck yeah.  But do I have MORE fun when my PC can be a gay male?  I definitely do.  That's just how I am.  Will I outright refuse to play a game that is straight only?  Nope. I will give it a try.  Doesn't mean I will *always* enjoy it though.  I tried "Kingdom Come: Deliverance" and that game just didn't do it for me.  It wasn't the mandatory heterosexuality though, even though that aspect ultimately bored me.  It was the fact that it was a medieval RPG with no magic.  I just can't handle that very well.  I respect the fact that the game is meant to be realistic and in line with how things actually historically were back then, but I discovered that too much of that type of reality just isn't fun for me.  At least in that instance.  I may force myself to stick it out longer one of these days. 

BTW I would love for Damsel to make a return as well.  She rocks.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 17, 2019, 05:52:38 AM
Yeah, part of me wonders how much that Sera girl generally just annoyed me by her sheer personality alone, and the other part made me wonder how much her lesbiaticism (I like making words up) locking my male PC out from a romance with her annoyed me at her. Pretty sure her personality was the greater aggravation, but then i'm pretty sure I was staring daggers at the lesbian-only romance option in ME3 as well. I'm like "I don't want to have to play the entire freaking game over just to even BEGIN to flirt with that character!

Of course, I kinda disliked most all of the romance options in ME3 anyway. I think I paired up with ol' soulless Liara again to link my ME1 romance over, and didn't romance anyone in the save file for ME2 so that I would be "faithful" to her and not piss her off in case that were to occur. Anyway, it was a terrible choice. I should've romanced Liara in ME1, then Tali in 2 and 3. Tali is so awesome. I wish she had been a romance option in ME1 so I could stick with her all the way.

And good for you and your leather-clad PC character in Fallout. Reminds me of the crazy shit the Nossies wear in Bloodlines. I would like to see electrical tape for the Nossie girls. =p
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 17, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
Yeah, part of me wonders how much that Sera girl generally just annoyed me by her sheer personality alone, and the other part made me wonder how much her lesbiaticism (I like making words up) locking my male PC out from a romance with her annoyed me at her. Pretty sure her personality was the greater aggravation, but then i'm pretty sure I was staring daggers at the lesbian-only romance option in ME3 as well. I'm like "I don't want to have to play the entire freaking game over just to even BEGIN to flirt with that character!

Of course, I kinda disliked most all of the romance options in ME3 anyway. I think I paired up with ol' soulless Liara again to link my ME1 romance over, and didn't romance anyone in the save file for ME2 so that I would be "faithful" to her and not piss her off in case that were to occur. Anyway, it was a terrible choice. I should've romanced Liara in ME1, then Tali in 2 and 3. Tali is so awesome. I wish she had been a romance option in ME1 so I could stick with her all the way.

And good for you and your leather-clad PC character in Fallout. Reminds me of the crazy shit the Nossies wear in Bloodlines. I would like to see electrical tape for the Nossie girls. =p

Sera always reminded me of a Malkavian to be honest.  lol 

There is some interesting drama that comes up if you aren't faithful to your original love interest.  I think in most cases you have a chance to rekindle it anyway or you can choose to stay with your new love interest. 

The Chained Prostitute outfit IS a lot like the Nossie clothing in Bloodlines 1, isn't it? I would have loved to have seen some of that Nossie stuff on other vampires as well.  lol 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 17, 2019, 11:54:28 AM
Yeah, part of me wonders how much that Sera girl generally just annoyed me by her sheer personality alone, and the other part made me wonder how much her lesbiaticism (I like making words up) locking my male PC out from a romance with her annoyed me at her. Pretty sure her personality was the greater aggravation, but then i'm pretty sure I was staring daggers at the lesbian-only romance option in ME3 as well. I'm like "I don't want to have to play the entire freaking game over just to even BEGIN to flirt with that character!

Of course, I kinda disliked most all of the romance options in ME3 anyway. I think I paired up with ol' soulless Liara again to link my ME1 romance over, and didn't romance anyone in the save file for ME2 so that I would be "faithful" to her and not piss her off in case that were to occur. Anyway, it was a terrible choice. I should've romanced Liara in ME1, then Tali in 2 and 3. Tali is so awesome. I wish she had been a romance option in ME1 so I could stick with her all the way.

And good for you and your leather-clad PC character in Fallout. Reminds me of the crazy shit the Nossies wear in Bloodlines. I would like to see electrical tape for the Nossie girls. =p

Sera always reminded me of a Malkavian to be honest.  lol 

There is some interesting drama that comes up if you aren't faithful to your original love interest.  I think in most cases you have a chance to rekindle it anyway or you can choose to stay with your new love interest. 

The Chained Prostitute outfit IS a lot like the Nossie clothing in Bloodlines 1, isn't it? I would have loved to have seen some of that Nossie stuff on other vampires as well.  lol

Maybe we'll get that sort of attire in Bloodlines 2 for he other clans. Then again, maybe it will be paid DLC, in which case that leather will never caress my undead buttocks.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 18, 2019, 03:21:43 AM
I would love to see her as well. Since she was like the resident L.A. "right hand" to Nines (Jack comes and goes, so he's more of a visitor), it would make sense for her to "branch out" to other cities and become an Anarch rabble-rousing leader herself elsewhere. Heck, even though 15 years isn't long for a Kindred, she could have gone through some character growth to be a teensy bit less angry/aggressive (albeit with a few outbursts).

If I could only pick one character per hub to get to spend time with in Bloodlines 2...it would be Jeanette, Damsel, Romero, and Yukie.

Those without a death state should definitely come back. I mean, there's no way Damsel can die in BL1.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 18, 2019, 03:25:24 AM
Yeah, part of me wonders how much that Sera girl generally just annoyed me by her sheer personality alone, and the other part made me wonder how much her lesbiaticism (I like making words up) locking my male PC out from a romance with her annoyed me at her. Pretty sure her personality was the greater aggravation, but then i'm pretty sure I was staring daggers at the lesbian-only romance option in ME3 as well. I'm like "I don't want to have to play the entire freaking game over just to even BEGIN to flirt with that character!

Of course, I kinda disliked most all of the romance options in ME3 anyway. I think I paired up with ol' soulless Liara again to link my ME1 romance over, and didn't romance anyone in the save file for ME2 so that I would be "faithful" to her and not piss her off in case that were to occur. Anyway, it was a terrible choice. I should've romanced Liara in ME1, then Tali in 2 and 3. Tali is so awesome. I wish she had been a romance option in ME1 so I could stick with her all the way.

And good for you and your leather-clad PC character in Fallout. Reminds me of the crazy shit the Nossies wear in Bloodlines. I would like to see electrical tape for the Nossie girls. =p

Sera always reminded me of a Malkavian to be honest.  lol 

There is some interesting drama that comes up if you aren't faithful to your original love interest.  I think in most cases you have a chance to rekindle it anyway or you can choose to stay with your new love interest. 

The Chained Prostitute outfit IS a lot like the Nossie clothing in Bloodlines 1, isn't it? I would have loved to have seen some of that Nossie stuff on other vampires as well.  lol

Maybe we'll get that sort of attire in Bloodlines 2 for he other clans. Then again, maybe it will be paid DLC, in which case that leather will never caress my undead buttocks.

I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 19, 2019, 03:15:04 AM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 19, 2019, 04:01:22 AM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 19, 2019, 04:55:22 AM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 19, 2019, 06:21:14 AM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD

If that ghoul identifies as male and he wants my vampire PC to drool over him, then he better look like this trans guy: 

(https://ist5-2.filesor.com/pimpandhost.com/2/0/5/1/20516/7/u/U/s/7uUs2/laith_ashley_attitude.jpg)
Trans model Laith Ashley

If he looks like that, then we all good. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 19, 2019, 06:25:11 AM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD

If that ghoul identifies as male and he wants my vampire PC to drool over him, then he better look like this trans guy: 

(https://ist5-2.filesor.com/pimpandhost.com/2/0/5/1/20516/7/u/U/o/7uUo4/Laith.jpg)

Is that really a trans person? If so, holy SHIT that surgery had to be expensive because that's pretty damn convincing.

That said, that ghoul had better be one hell of a cuddler for it to make a good straight romance option...
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 19, 2019, 06:30:24 AM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD

If that ghoul identifies as male and he wants my vampire PC to drool over him, then he better look like this trans guy: 

(https://ist5-2.filesor.com/pimpandhost.com/2/0/5/1/20516/7/u/U/o/7uUo4/Laith.jpg)

Is that really a trans person? If so, holy SHIT that surgery had to be expensive because that's pretty damn convincing.

That said, that ghoul had better be one hell of a cuddler for it to make a good straight romance option...

Ha ha I just modified the picture I used but that's fine.  Two for the price of one.  lol

Yep, that's Laith Ashley, and he is indeed trans. 
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 19, 2019, 12:55:11 PM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD

If that ghoul identifies as male and he wants my vampire PC to drool over him, then he better look like this trans guy: 

(https://ist5-2.filesor.com/pimpandhost.com/2/0/5/1/20516/7/u/U/o/7uUo4/Laith.jpg)

Is that really a trans person? If so, holy SHIT that surgery had to be expensive because that's pretty damn convincing.

That said, that ghoul had better be one hell of a cuddler for it to make a good straight romance option...

Ha ha I just modified the picture I used but that's fine.  Two for the price of one.  lol

Yep, that's Laith Ashley, and he is indeed trans.

Well, he got his money's worth. Normally, I don't play the pronoun game, but no one's compelling my speech here. In this scenario, this person looks legitimately too much like a dude for me to say "she" without forcing myself to do so. Wow. If you're gonna do F to M, THAT'S how ya do it.

Also, it looks like he's sitting in a large tumble dryer that will spin him and his partner as they copulate in the throes of ecstasy. The challenge, however, is dodging those heart rock things as they twirl about in the spin tumble dryer with you, trying to avoid getting a concussion. ;)
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 19, 2019, 01:01:37 PM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD

If that ghoul identifies as male and he wants my vampire PC to drool over him, then he better look like this trans guy: 

(https://ist5-2.filesor.com/pimpandhost.com/2/0/5/1/20516/7/u/U/o/7uUo4/Laith.jpg)

Is that really a trans person? If so, holy SHIT that surgery had to be expensive because that's pretty damn convincing.

That said, that ghoul had better be one hell of a cuddler for it to make a good straight romance option...

Ha ha I just modified the picture I used but that's fine.  Two for the price of one.  lol

Yep, that's Laith Ashley, and he is indeed trans.

Well, he got his money's worth. Normally, I don't play the pronoun game, but no one's compelling my speech here. In this scenario, this person looks legitimately too much like a dude for me to say "she" without forcing myself to do so. Wow. If you're gonna do F to M, THAT'S how ya do it.

Also, it looks like he's sitting in a large tumble dryer that will spin him and his partner as they copulate in the throes of ecstasy. The challenge, however, is dodging those heart rock things as they twirl about in the spin tumble dryer with you, trying to avoid getting a concussion. ;)

Well.  Ahem.  That creates quite the image, I must say.  LOL   *fanning self*
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkProphet on May 19, 2019, 01:27:19 PM
I hope we do get it!  I also hope outfits can be modded into the game as well.

Gotta dress up them ventrues huh ?

Absolutely, and dress them completely down when at my haven.   And my male ghoul (I am assuming they are gonna give us a dude ghoul option) can walk around in his underwear like you could do with Heather in the first game. 

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/23GMSKyeoPPLG/giphy.gif)

Lol, I can only imagine your annoyance if they cheap out and just give us one female ghoul and if your character is a gay male, the female ghoul will be a "gay option" by having her say that she "identifies as male." Then if you publicly express any aggravation, you're "transphobic." XD

If that ghoul identifies as male and he wants my vampire PC to drool over him, then he better look like this trans guy: 

(https://ist5-2.filesor.com/pimpandhost.com/2/0/5/1/20516/7/u/U/o/7uUo4/Laith.jpg)

Is that really a trans person? If so, holy SHIT that surgery had to be expensive because that's pretty damn convincing.

That said, that ghoul had better be one hell of a cuddler for it to make a good straight romance option...

Ha ha I just modified the picture I used but that's fine.  Two for the price of one.  lol

Yep, that's Laith Ashley, and he is indeed trans.

Well, he got his money's worth. Normally, I don't play the pronoun game, but no one's compelling my speech here. In this scenario, this person looks legitimately too much like a dude for me to say "she" without forcing myself to do so. Wow. If you're gonna do F to M, THAT'S how ya do it.

Also, it looks like he's sitting in a large tumble dryer that will spin him and his partner as they copulate in the throes of ecstasy. The challenge, however, is dodging those heart rock things as they twirl about in the spin tumble dryer with you, trying to avoid getting a concussion. ;)

Well.  Ahem.  That creates quite the image, I must say.  LOL   *fanning self*

Lmao. Happy to be of service. XD
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 19, 2019, 03:25:22 PM
We should probably have a topic on Ghoul Speculation.

*rubs chin*
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 20, 2019, 12:58:56 AM
We should probably have a topic on Ghoul Speculation.

*rubs chin*

Chin rubbing isn't exactly what I had on my mind a few posts ago but...maybe you're right.  LOL
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: Highwayman667 on May 20, 2019, 01:10:36 AM
Chin rubbing isn't exactly what I had on my mind a few posts ago but...maybe you're right.  LOL

You wanted... Fang rubbin' then ;) ?
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: DarkZephyr on May 20, 2019, 01:15:56 AM
Chin rubbing isn't exactly what I had on my mind a few posts ago but...maybe you're right.  LOL

You wanted... Fang rubbin' then ;) ?

For starters!  LOL
Title: Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
Post by: vampiredave on September 12, 2019, 01:28:56 AM
I have faith. They have original creators on board who cite VtMB consistency as one of their pillars. And don't forget, Paradox purchased the IP--after a collapsed attempt at an MMORPG. If they wanted to create something far off the mark, they could have just made something "unassociated" but copyright safe. I'd have a lot of the fears cited if this game was being made by Disney or EA, you know? (Poor Fallout.) But you could pick better IP for a cash grab. I think Paradox pretty faithfully handled the Shadowrun IP.

Maybe I'm just super hopeful. But I'll wager I'm not the only one, and some of the others are working on this game. Fingers crossed.
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