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Offline Zanderat

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2019, 01:16:01 PM »
I am with @DarkZephyr.  Keeping an open mind and hopeful (given what I know about the game) that it will turn out great.

Offline VampireBill

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2019, 02:49:28 PM »

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

Offline The Shadow Man

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2019, 04:03:10 PM »

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

Safe space?! This is meant to be a personal horror game about playing as a vampire!

Offline Zanderat

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2019, 04:16:07 PM »

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.
Confused.  There is no rape scene in VTMBL.

Offline Signothorn

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2019, 04:45:31 PM »
I think it may be good to have a larger female influence in the writing of BL2. In BL1, females were much more sexualized than males, likely because of how many males were writing vs women. There were many females who played the game, but we don't often hear their perspectives about the experience playing BL1. I don't find conflict in what Cara said, I just want to understand more. I have noticed on moddb and other places that some female players have made more modest skins of the female PC's to make the game more appealing to them. There are also players who are lesbian, and like sexualized women. I don't view these positions as "they're going to take away BL2's "fappability" for guys. With the modding capability of the game, and the Rule 34-type stuff, guys can create whatever they want. I'm not a fan of identity politics in general, but I am a fan of listening to the views of others. I don't need to pull up stats of how many more males there are in this forum vs women for you to understand how skewed it is.

I think it would be a good thing for BL2 to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without losing the sense of personal horror and tone of the original. I want to hear more from females, not less. Outstar on youtube has a good video about human politics in BL1, and how it was done in a subtle way that was fairly balanced and not in your face. Why wouldn't BL2 be the same? I understand the doubts, we haven't seen much of the game yet, and we don't want to hype ourselves up and be let down at the end, because we've been let down by CCP and forced to wait so long for a new game. Asking questions and speculating is par for the course, but I think bashing BL2 before we even see much of it is premature and kinda silly, even though it's more the exception than the rule of this topic.

Offline mdqp

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2019, 05:29:56 PM »
I think it may be good to have a larger female influence in the writing of BL2. In BL1, females were much more sexualized than males, likely because of how many males were writing vs women. There were many females who played the game, but we don't often hear their perspectives about the experience playing BL1. I don't find conflict in what Cara said, I just want to understand more. I have noticed on moddb and other places that some female players have made more modest skins of the female PC's to make the game more appealing to them. There are also players who are lesbian, and like sexualized women. I don't view these positions as "they're going to take away BL2's "fappability" for guys. With the modding capability of the game, and the Rule 34-type stuff, guys can create whatever they want. I'm not a fan of identity politics in general, but I am a fan of listening to the views of others. I don't need to pull up stats of how many more males there are in this forum vs women for you to understand how skewed it is.

I think it would be a good thing for BL2 to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without losing the sense of personal horror and tone of the original. I want to hear more from females, not less. Outstar on youtube has a good video about human politics in BL1, and how it was done in a subtle way that was fairly balanced and not in your face. Why wouldn't BL2 be the same? I understand the doubts, we haven't seen much of the game yet, and we don't want to hype ourselves up and be let down at the end, because we've been let down by CCP and forced to wait so long for a new game. Asking questions and speculating is par for the course, but I think bashing BL2 before we even see much of it is premature and kinda silly, even though it's more the exception than the rule of this topic.

I think I kind of agree with most of your points, although I don't quite see having a skewed male/female population in any given game (or forum) as a problem, as I am sure like with any activities there are male and female dominated areas (and I also think that trying to please everybody is a good recipe to create bland art and products).

But I think the problem about the political discussion comes back to what I mentioned already. Me 10-15 years ago didn't really get to hear about the developers' politics. Maybe I just didn't look hard enough, but from what I can see it's simply the case that game journalists weren't nearly as interested in those back then. Nowadays, you get a lot of questions about politics (in the interviews, you can it's the journalists that often bring this up first). You also have widespread social media, making it easier to hear stuff that would have been strictly personal a while ago.

On top of that, you get to hear them (paraphrasing here) that Bloodlines 1 was a good game, but it was also problematic, that they won't punch down, etc. I think a large portion of the fans like Bloodlines 1 just as it is (minus the bugs XD), and they don't see any particular issues with it (certainly not enough to call it problematic, or saying dismissively that it's a product of its time). It's not perfect, of course, but I don't think making a game with the exact same sensibilites nowadays should be perceived as insulting by anybody.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2019, 07:12:55 PM »

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

I know that for some people "safe space" is a term of dread, but I am focusing on the message she is trying to convey when I read her words rather than her eye roll inducing buzz terminology.  She is not the first person to ever criticize forced events in video games that players didn't get to choose to do and she won't be the last.  Her main problem with this forced event was that it was rape of a woman and on top of that, no male NPCs were put into similar situations.



"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.

Safe space?! This is meant to be a personal horror game about playing as a vampire!

She was talking about Hotline Miami 2, not Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. 


"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison



Holyyy crap, I was right there with you on the hopeful optimism until that. Yikes, "my safe space" used unironically? My warning klaxons just started blaring again.
Confused.  There is no rape scene in VTMBL.

Yes, I think people are misunderstanding what that quote is about and perhaps I should have been more clear, but the person I was having the discussion with was aware of what I was referring to (at least I assume he was).  After doing a bit of research a few days ago, I learned that people are upset by her attachment to the project because of her protestations of a scene in the game "Hotline Miami part 2", which is what the quote is about.   

She was playing the game and came upon a situation where she thought she would have to hit a woman which she was actually willing to do with her male PC "Pig Butcher" as she had done with previous male NPCs but when she went to do so, the game took over and her character, without her control, walked up to the woman , pinned her down and yanked his pants down, on the verge of raping the girl.  She didn't choose to have her PC commit this act nor did she feel comfortable as a woman being forced to play out such a scene. 

She isn't the first person to complain about a forced event in video games and she won't be the last.  I can kind of understand where she's coming from.  I know that I myself am not overly fond of when my PC is suddenly portrayed, without my control, as making a decision that *I* would never have had him or her make.  I usually shout at the screen "No!  No no no!  He/She wouldn't DO that!".  I think I can see why a woman would be upset if her character was basically usurped from her by the game and made to carry out an act like that. 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:29:13 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline VampireBill

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2019, 12:33:15 AM »

She isn't the first person to complain about a forced event in video games and she won't be the last.  I can kind of understand where she's coming from.  I know that I myself am not overly fond of when my PC is suddenly portrayed, without my control, as making a decision that *I* would never have had him or her make.  I usually shout at the screen "No!  No no no!  He/She wouldn't DO that!".  I think I can see why a woman would be upset if her character was basically usurped from her by the game and made to carry out an act like that.

True. I think we're all against our characters being forced to do something or take a position on something we don't agree with in an RPG, and ironically that's actually one of the worries that we'll lose that with the current state of gaming politics. On a more humorous, but still frustrating side, the Dragon Age games come to mind, where you thought you were choosing a harmless friendly dialogue option (and often to avoid a seemingly negative/mean dialogue option), and next thing you know your character is having full-out gay sex with that NPC, ha.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2019, 02:04:32 AM »

She isn't the first person to complain about a forced event in video games and she won't be the last.  I can kind of understand where she's coming from.  I know that I myself am not overly fond of when my PC is suddenly portrayed, without my control, as making a decision that *I* would never have had him or her make.  I usually shout at the screen "No!  No no no!  He/She wouldn't DO that!".  I think I can see why a woman would be upset if her character was basically usurped from her by the game and made to carry out an act like that.

True. I think we're all against our characters being forced to do something or take a position on something we don't agree with in an RPG, and ironically that's actually one of the worries that we'll lose that with the current state of gaming politics. On a more humorous, but still frustrating side, the Dragon Age games come to mind, where you thought you were choosing a harmless friendly dialogue option (and often to avoid a seemingly negative/mean dialogue option), and next thing you know your character is having full-out gay sex with that NPC, ha.

LOL That was never a problem for me when it happened! :D

Although on the other hand, My guy wound up having sex with Morrigan at camp when I least expected it (I was trying to be a good friend and keep her warm, she said she was cold!) and was trying to romance Zevran.  Earlier BioWare games DID have issues with what we like to call "Ninja-mancing".  I think they try hard to avoid that now, although sometimes their attempts at that are met with derision as well, like in Dragon Age 2, you knew what the flirt options were because of the hearts, but apparently some found it easy to get Anders mad at them if they didn't choose the flirt.  Personally that never happened to me that I can recall.  I preferred to get my gay on with Fenris after my first romance with Anders.  But in part 3, I had to WORK at it to get the Iron Bull to plow my Inquisitor.  lol  So maybe they finally got it right. 

The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

I love the way Saints Row 4 lampoons rpg romances, even though I am a big fan of them. 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 02:09:46 AM by DarkZephyr »

Online Highwayman667

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2019, 03:38:00 AM »
The romances are one of my favorite aspects of those games.  In The Witcher series I stanned Geralt and Triss.  I never have gone the Yennefer route yet.

If you like your women sexy and castrating, then Yen's your chick !

Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2019, 06:11:48 AM »
Dark Zephyr said, "I know that for some people "safe space" is a term of dread, ---- ".  Well, yes we do.  From what I can tell, it's a place where people who think and act alike and consider anything different as wrong go to hide in a bubble from reality.  Generally, a writer's personal biases come out in their work and that sort of thinking, if rampant, could sink a dark project.  However, that doesn't mean it will be rampant.  Again, I hope but I don't expect. 

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 08:10:32 AM »
On a more humorous, but still frustrating side, the Dragon Age games come to mind, where you thought you were choosing a harmless friendly dialogue option (and often to avoid a seemingly negative/mean dialogue option), and next thing you know your character is having full-out gay sex with that NPC, ha.

In the demo that I saw the dialogue answers were displayed as a list in full text, like in Bloodlines, so nothing like a vague dialogue wheel :).

Offline mdqp

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2019, 09:24:06 AM »
In the demo that I saw the dialogue answers were displayed as a list in full text, like in Bloodlines, so nothing like a vague dialogue wheel :).

Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2? Are there images or videos of it online? Or are you referring to one of the Dragon Age games?

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2019, 10:03:53 AM »
Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2?

Yes, Paradox contacted me end of January to show the beginning of the game via a web session. But I wasn't allowed to say anything until the announcement!

Offline mdqp

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2019, 10:24:24 AM »
Wait, you saw the demo of Bloodlines 2?

Yes, Paradox contacted me end of January to show the beginning of the game via a web session. But I wasn't allowed to say anything until the announcement!

Can you share everything you saw now? I bet a lot of people (including me) would like to hear more about it. I have read a few articles, but I value your thoughts quite a bit, so if you can say more, please do. ^_^

 

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