Author Topic: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?  (Read 5492 times)

Offline El_Gostro

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2019, 12:08:55 PM »
Has anyone figured out what Dacto- Pindalism is yet?
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Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2019, 02:06:31 PM »
"As for this boogeyman lady writer (if her first name were Anita I might be concerned, but its not thankfully), the original game didn't have rape and I don't expect this game will have rape either.  The game won't need rape to be fun"

Neither did Hotline Miami 2, but that didn't stop her launching a moral panic.

Reality is that if the original Bloodlines was launched today she'd be calling for it to be censored.

Thats the head writer. Good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure she's not the head writer.  I'm fairly certain that the original head writer Brian Mitsoda is the head writer.  If you watch that video from NoClip from last week, he's one of the ones who pitched doing the game to Paradox.  They had already planned on doing it eventually somewhere down the line, but he's one of the ones that talked them into doing it now.  The other guy apparently being someone named "Kai Clooney" or something like that, I couldn't quite catch it as he was talking kind of fast there.  But the point is, this game is in the hands of THE original writer and he probably had a big say in the staff that will be working under him.  Her moral viewpoints aside, he must think she's a good writer and thinks she's worthy of the project.  So, how about we just give the game a chance?  The only credits I can find right now state that he's the writer.  https://www.igdb.com/games/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2/credits  The video calls him the "Narrative Lead" which sounds like a fancy way of saying "lead writer" to me.  Regardless, he's the one in charge of much of the writing and the direction of the narrative and he's the one in charge of all of the other writers. 

So we need to keep a positive outlook about this.  There isn't any REAL reason to freak out just yet.

Here's the video I mentioned: 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 02:11:58 PM by DarkZephyr »
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Offline ush

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2019, 10:37:19 PM »
You can call her what you want, Head Writer, Senior Writer, Chief Sparrow, she's involved and that's reason enough for me to give this game a body swerve.  I'm not supporting some latter day gaming version of the PMRC
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Offline Highwayman667

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2019, 02:41:55 AM »
You can call her what you want, Head Writer, Senior Writer, Chief Sparrow, she's involved and that's reason enough for me to give this game a body swerve.  I'm not supporting some latter day gaming version of the PMRC

Sometimes I can't feel proud of the videogame community. Wonder why.
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Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2019, 04:05:27 AM »
You can call her what you want, Head Writer, Senior Writer, Chief Sparrow, she's involved and that's reason enough for me to give this game a body swerve.  I'm not supporting some latter day gaming version of the PMRC

That’s your prerogative.  I for one am just not that worried over the fact that she shared her opinion on rape scenes or mock rape scenes in video games, she’s not the first person who ever expressed an opinion on something. So I will be giving the game a chance.  If it lacks rape scenes that’s just not gonna be a problem for me.
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Offline ush

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2019, 12:43:44 PM »
Here's an opinion: You're constantly pretending that you have a fuzzy understanding of the problem people have with Ellisons involvement.  It's a form of weasel words to re frame debate that's clumsy and obvious.

She didn't just express an opinion, she wrote an article on HM2 that sparked a moral panic among her fellow sparrows

https://www.pcgamer.com/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number-1/

"I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting."

That's not just an opinion when it's in an article for a major gaming website, that's finger pointing for an outrage mob.

This has nothing to do with rape scenes or lack thereof, and BTW despite your assertion,  there's a whole mission based around rape and snuff movies in Bloodlines, how problematic. Hopefully Bloodines 2 can "do better" or "punch up"  :D


It has everything to do with me not giving money to games that are being developed by the high sparrows of a self appointed censorship board.  I don't even think a VTM game where ideologues like Ellison have input is capable of reaching the heights that the original did. Ideologues can only make propaganda. 
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Offline mdqp

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2019, 02:11:41 PM »
Here's an opinion: You're constantly pretending that you have a fuzzy understanding of the problem people have with Ellisons involvement.  It's a form of weasel words to re frame debate that's clumsy and obvious.

She didn't just express an opinion, she wrote an article on HM2 that sparked a moral panic among her fellow sparrows

https://www.pcgamer.com/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number-1/

"I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting."

That's not just an opinion when it's in an article for a major gaming website, that's finger pointing for an outrage mob.

This has nothing to do with rape scenes or lack thereof, and BTW despite your assertion,  there's a whole mission based around rape and snuff movies in Bloodlines, how problematic. Hopefully Bloodines 2 can "do better" or "punch up"  :D


It has everything to do with me not giving money to games that are being developed by the high sparrows of a self appointed censorship board.  I don't even think a VTM game where ideologues like Ellison have input is capable of reaching the heights that the original did. Ideologues can only make propaganda.

I hear you. I am not as fatalistic, because right now it's hard to have an idea of her impact on the script, but her involvement did dampen my enthusiasm a bit. I went and checked to see about her involvement in other games, but it's all minor stuff so far, plus a pretty short, kind of mediocre Twine adventure for "Unwinnable’s Sex Week", which I didn't even know was a thing in any way, shape or form.

She is a senior writer, so she will likely have some weight in the direction of the story, but I can't say how much (it really depends on how things are run and how the writing team is structured). I must say, I am surprised that she got a senior writing position, with her lackluster background.

Offline Radical21

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2019, 02:20:33 PM »
Very creative new names for these new accounts...

Anyways my problem with this is a persecution of individuals, we've seen it happen before in the gaming community.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 02:23:56 PM by Radical21 »

Offline mdqp

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2019, 02:34:35 PM »
Very creative new names for these new accounts...

Anyways my problem with this is a persecution of individuals, we've seen it happen before in the gaming community.

If you are talking about me, I registered in 2010 (I just never posted all that much, and stopped coming for a few years altogether)... My nickname has a meaning to me, and as for originality, I doubt there are many mdqp around (although surprisingly, I did find it was taken on a few forums/services, much to my dismay).

As for persecution, all I can say is if I can't even suggest that what I know about her makes her look like a bad choice for her job, then I might as well never talk about anything at all. This has been a fairly tame discussion, all in all, with only 2 or 3 more emotional posts. Finally, if people hate her, they'll hate her with or without anyone's consent, I doubt persecution starts in this type of forum or thread, thankfully.

Offline DarkZephyr

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2019, 03:25:43 PM »
Here's an opinion: You're constantly pretending that you have a fuzzy understanding of the problem people have with Ellisons involvement.  It's a form of weasel words to re frame debate that's clumsy and obvious.

She didn't just express an opinion, she wrote an article on HM2 that sparked a moral panic among her fellow sparrows

https://www.pcgamer.com/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number-1/

"I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting."

That's not just an opinion when it's in an article for a major gaming website, that's finger pointing for an outrage mob.

This has nothing to do with rape scenes or lack thereof, and BTW despite your assertion,  there's a whole mission based around rape and snuff movies in Bloodlines, how problematic. Hopefully Bloodines 2 can "do better" or "punch up"  :D


It has everything to do with me not giving money to games that are being developed by the high sparrows of a self appointed censorship board.  I don't even think a VTM game where ideologues like Ellison have input is capable of reaching the heights that the original did. Ideologues can only make propaganda.

Like I said, its your prerogative.  I'm still going to give the game a chance.  You don't like her, fine.  I am not trying to talk you out of it. 

But I will say this.  I have played Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines many many times in the last 11 to 12 years and not once have I *ever* managed to watch a rape scene.  Not once. The "snuff" scene that we actually watched on screen was footage of a completely clothed young woman being torn apart by monsters after having been lured to a creepy house.  The game is loaded with examples of people being torn apart by monsters, often *our PC* is the monster doing it and the victims of this violence are male AND female.  Was there a mission with dead bodies and evidence of the aftermath of some very brutal, murderous acts known as "snuff"?    Yes.  I don't deny that.  That has never been my assertion.  There is a HUGE difference however, behind the acknowledgement within the game that something happened and actually *depicting it*, even partially, on screen. Beyond that, this game is definitely filled with dangerous sexuality and various forms of brutality.  Oftentimes disgusting and sick acts, like torn apart bodies.  We can make people bulge in agony as their blood boils, right before they explode into a shower of blood, red gristle and chunks of meat.   We roam around and drink blood out of our victim's necks, some times til they're dead if we so choose and want to risk the loss of humanity.  We manipulate people into letting us drink from them, sometimes using a discipline called "seduction".  We can use conventional arms to shoot people or hack them to death. None of this is lost on me.  Absolutely none of it.  Violence, brutality, dangerous sexuality and eroticism is an ingrained part of this franchise.  I have never tried to deny that.  I like that aspect of it.  I hope we can get even sexier in the sequel and focus some of that sexiness on the men and not just the women. Dangerous sexuality and eroticism is an extremely important part of the franchise.  If she intends to do away with all of that, and I play the game and discover that she has, I will be right there with you feeling pretty damned outraged and I will not be quiet about it.  Believe me.  But as I keep saying, I am going to give the game a chance.  Its as simple as that.  Besides, if she has an aversion simply to video game violence and sexuality she picked a strange franchise to attach herself to.

What I have personally read about her protestations are that she was annoyed that only women were the focus of this sexual brutality:

"The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency." -Cara Ellison

The impression I get is that she wouldn't have been quite as annoyed or felt quite as "betrayed" had this not been restricted only to women in the game.  She in fact seems to have glorified in the powerful thuggishness and bad assery of her PC until this point, suggesting to me that she's not against violence itself in games.  Yes I am aware that she is using some eye roll inducing buzz terms like "safe space".  But I am looking at the message behind her words, the idea that she is trying to convey.   This is MY understanding of this controversy.  Is it "fuzzy"?  Maybe.  But is it an understanding that I am "pretending" to have?  Not even close.  Why would I even do that?  That's weird. So how about we limit our discussion to the actual topic and stay away from making personal accusations, OK?  I don't see any reason for that, just because we disagree about something. 

Bottom line.  I am giving the game a chance.  You don't have to if you don't want to.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 05:09:20 PM by DarkZephyr »

Offline Wesp5

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2019, 06:06:16 PM »
As far as I know Cara Ellison is foremost wríting the sidequest in which you need to find the other six new embraced thin bloods and see how they cope with being a vampire. This could be a rather humane questline, so to speak. Assuming that Brian Mitsoda wrote the main quest, I would really like to know what kind of things Chris Avellone got to write!
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Offline Zeppeli

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2019, 07:20:07 PM »
I will not be touching it

Offline Azrael

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2019, 09:58:21 PM »
Has anyone figured out what Dacto- Pindalism is yet?

Assuming he actually said DACTYL - Pintalisim (Pointalism? Pin-toe-ism?) it's probably some kind of fucked up/made up therapy involving poking people in the fingers and toes with sharp objects. Or electricity. You know how those ol' wacky psychology pioneers were. Probably stabbed needled dipped in cocaine into your toes and then ran a current through em for kicks. TBH some of these new bloods could use that kind of stimulation. By the sound of their whinging.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 10:04:22 PM by Azrael »
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Offline Nanaloma

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2019, 02:21:44 AM »
Has anyone figured out what Dacto- Pindalism is yet?

Assuming he actually said DACTYL - Pintalisim (Pointalism? Pin-toe-ism?) it's probably some kind of fucked up/made up therapy involving poking people in the fingers and toes with sharp objects. Or electricity. You know how those ol' wacky psychology pioneers were. Probably stabbed needled dipped in cocaine into your toes and then ran a current through em for kicks. TBH some of these new bloods could use that kind of stimulation. By the sound of their whinging.

My take is that, if real, it was a hyphenated word.  I could only find one forefather of insanity treatment that could match this:  French physician Philippe Pinel (1745–1826) and former patient Jean-Baptise Pussin created a “traitement moral” at La Bicêtre and the Salpêtrière in 1793 and 1795.  Nothing I found could match the dachto part except a Bishop Ignace Dachto from the same time period.  Doubt he did any brain related research, though. 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 02:26:00 AM by Nanaloma »

Offline Highwayman667

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Re: Is it just me, or is VtMB2 destined to come crashing down?
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2019, 06:06:13 AM »
As far as I know Cara Ellison is foremost wríting the sidequest in which you need to find the other six new embraced thin bloods and see how they cope with being a vampire. This could be a rather humane questline, so to speak. Assuming that Brian Mitsoda wrote the main quest, I would really like to know what kind of things Chris Avellone got to write!

That sounds pretty awesome coming from a "supposed SJW".