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Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 2 => Bloodlines 2 General discussion => Topic started by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 17, 2020, 08:57:02 am

Title: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 17, 2020, 08:57:02 am
Well well its seems that Cara Ellison is also not longer working on Bloodlines 2 because like Mitsoda before she removed her title as senior narrative designer from her twitter bio.
Maybe her work on the Bloodlines 2 base game is done and she is not longer needed but there is still work to do regarding the DLCs and the big fat expansion.
https://twitter.com/caraellison/with_replies?lang=de (https://twitter.com/caraellison/with_replies?lang=de)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wesp5 on October 17, 2020, 09:56:35 am
Hm, I don't know if this is good news or bad news. I feared she would stay to rewrite Brians stuff to be more woke. If she got fired as well, it might mean the game will be even more different to what both of them were imagening...
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 17, 2020, 02:13:14 pm
If she got fired as well, it might mean the game will be even more different to what both of them were imagening...
My current guess is that the new guy in charge doesn´t care about the game. He is only interessed that the game will be finished soon.
I believe many things will be cut (more than usually in game development) and many people like Brian & Cara have a problem with that. Or he is just firing all people who were problematic in his point of view. Maybe he can´t accept a No. Who knows?

Edit: Here is the tweet that she moves back to UK (or should i better say Scotland?)https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317143128814518280 (https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317143128814518280)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 17, 2020, 03:24:17 pm
If she got fired as well, it might mean the game will be even more different to what both of them were imagening...
My current guess is that the new guy in charge doesn´t care about the game. He is only interessed that the game will be finished soon.
I believe many things will be cut (more than usually in game development) and many people like Brian & Cara have a problem with that. Or he is just firing all people who were problematic in his point of view. Maybe he can´t accept a No. Who knows?

Edit: Here is the tweet that she moves back to UK (or should i better say Scotland?)https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317143128814518280 (https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317143128814518280)
Obviously no one is giving us answers, but with Mitsoda, Cluney, AND Ellison gone, too, the most logical explanation would be that the direction and writing for the game are effectively done and Paradox is desperately trying to get the game finished and out the door, but has terminated the aforementioned persons because it is hemorrhaging money by keeping upper staff members who have essentially completed their jobs are high-cost overhead to keep on the project if the finishing touches are being worked on for several more months.

Let us HOPE that's the case, because it would not change much - if anything - about the actual final product.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 17, 2020, 04:00:23 pm
the most logical explanation would be that the direction and writing for the game are effectively done and Paradox is desperately trying to get the game finished and out the door, but has terminated the aforementioned persons because it is hemorrhaging money by keeping upper staff members who have essentially completed their jobs are high-cost overhead to keep on the project if the finishing touches are being worked on for several more months.
This is your favourite explanation, isn´t it?  :vampwink: I won´t say that this is the most logical one because again there is still work to do for the writers. I agree that the Bloodlines 2 basic game should be mostly done from the writing but there are still at least two free Clan DLCs, the two Story DLCs and the big fat Expansion.
Sorry but i believe that all of them (except Avellone because of the controversy) were fired because the new guy in control has only one goal in mind.
And this is finishing Bloodlines 2 production in the near future at all cost. And everyone who gets in his way will get fired.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 17, 2020, 04:59:14 pm
the most logical explanation would be that the direction and writing for the game are effectively done and Paradox is desperately trying to get the game finished and out the door, but has terminated the aforementioned persons because it is hemorrhaging money by keeping upper staff members who have essentially completed their jobs are high-cost overhead to keep on the project if the finishing touches are being worked on for several more months.
This is your favourite explanation, isn´t it?  :vampwink: I won´t say that this is the most logical one because again there is still work to do for the writers. I agree that the Bloodlines 2 basic game should be mostly done from the writing but there are still the at least two free Clan DLCs, the two Story DLCs and the big fat Expansion.
Sorry but i believe that all of them (except Avellone because of the controversy) were fired because the new guy in control has only one goal in mind.
And this is finishing Bloodlines 2 production in the near future at all cost. And everyone who gets in his way will get fired.

Well, I mean without new, conflicting evidence, why in the world would my theory change unless I'm a psycho? =p
I agree that getting Bloodlines 2 out the door quickly at all costs seems to be their primary goal right now, though that doesn't mean my theory isn't also correct concerning Mitsoda and Ellison. Two things can be true at once. They can want the game out the door ASAP, and they can also want to stop hemorrhaging money. Firing Cluney could help with getting it out the door fast, and letting Mitsoda and Ellison go could be saving money because their writing on the main game is done. Where are you getting information that the writing was incomplete on the main game? Obviously, I hope the expansion was fully written, but I have serious doubts about that...
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 17, 2020, 05:28:52 pm
and letting Mitsoda and Ellison go could be saving money because their writing on the main game is done.
You don´t get it don´t you?  :laugh: Yeah the main game is from the writing aspect almost finished but who writes the DLCs and the expansion? Because there are in no way near as finished as the basic game. And don´t forget writers are also used as playtesters.
Also i seriously doubt that Mitsoda and Ellison are that expensive. Maybe both would work for less. Who knows Mitsoda even for almost free?
No, i believe they were fired because they don´t get along with Alexandre Mandryka and his vision of the game. Spoilerwarning: He has none and likely doesn´t care about the game and its story. He was only hired to finally skip this game soon.

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Where are you getting information that the writing was incomplete on the main game?
There are always Last Minute changes in the dialogues. Maybe i should be more precise. The voiced dialogues are done but the non ones like Player answers, questlog or tooltips could still be changed.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 17, 2020, 05:55:17 pm
You don´t get it don´t you?  :laugh: Yeah the main game is from the writing aspect almost finished but who writes the DLCs and the expansion? Because there are in no way near as finished as the basic game.
Dude, my post you responded to literally said that I doubted the expansion writing was finished. So yes. Yes, I do get it...

Quote
And don´t forget writers are also used as playtesters.
Perhaps by some developers. We don't know if they were using them to that end or not.
Quote
Also i seriously doubt that Mitsoda and Ellison are that expensive. Maybe both would work for less. Who knows Mitsoda even for almost free?
Maybe they would. However, if they were asked to work for less, declined, then got let go without signing an NDA on it, then they could go public with it. By not offering them less money and just letting them go, they can't legitimately give a reason why they were let go without risking slander/libel charges.
And unless we assume that Paradox just hates money, they're not going to shake the faith of Bloodlines 1 fans by firing Mitsoda unless A) he needed to be fired because he was a serious problem for them, which could be any number of reasons, OR B) keeping him on for several more months with little to no writing left to do for main game would cost more money than the sales revenue they might lose from people familiar with Bloodlines getting angry and refusing to buy the game for that reason.

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No i believe they were fired because they don´t get along with Alexandre Mandryka and his vision of the game.
You're entitled to your beliefs. Where are you getting the information that Mitsoda and Mandryka disagreed? Your speculation requires the invention of major disagreements about the game which there is no information to support.

Quote
Spoilerwarning: He has none and likely doesn´t care about the game and its story.
Where did anyone with knowledge about the project say he has no vision for the game? I don't believe he has one, but it's foolhardy to invent "facts."

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He was only hired to finally skip this game soon.

Based on Paradox's statements and the situation, this seems accurate.

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There are always Last Minute changes in the dialogues. Maybe i should be more precise. The voiced dialogues are done but the non ones like Player answers, questlog or tooltips could still be changed.
Even you or I could make those changes. I mean, we kinda have, right (I think you've tested?)? Whenever this community found errors or nonsensical player dialog in Bloodlines 1, we reported it, and Wesp fixed it. You don't need a professional writer to spot bad wording. Quality Assurance or anyone else in HSL/Paradox could handle this with line change suggestions. With the exception of Malkavian dialog, which it stands to reason was very deliberately written at a high level of scrutiny, most player lines aren't going to be "amazing writing," and if they're "flavorful" like some of the jokey player lines in Bloodlines 1, it tends to just be grammar that needs fixing.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Highwayman667 on October 17, 2020, 06:28:15 pm
My current guess is that the new guy in charge doesn´t care about the game. He is only interessed that the game will be finished soon. I believe many things will be cut (more than usually in game development) and many people like Brian & Cara have a problem with that.Or he is just firing all people who were problematic in his point of view. Maybe he can´t appect a No. Who knows?

Edit: Here is the tweet that she moves back to UK (or should i better say Scotland?)https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317143128814518280 (https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317143128814518280)


I wonder if she'll say anything. I doubt it though, her approach might've been correct but she might be held back by a NDA of some form.


What a way to destroy a sequel to one of the greatest RPG's of all time. This all sucks so much.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wesp5 on October 17, 2020, 08:52:30 pm
I wonder if she'll say anything. I doubt it though, her approach might've been correct but she might be held back by a NDA of some form.
If she doesn't say anything, I would see it as a bad sign. If this is all about their work being finished, like DarkProphet is still hoping, I would guess she could post something according to that! Like she finished her work on Bloodlines 2 and is now returning to Scotland for new projects. Giving fans some hope the game might end up good...
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 17, 2020, 09:05:10 pm
What a way to destroy a sequel to one of the greatest RPG's of all time. This all sucks so much.
So if the game ends up sucking, obviously you can have a "Called it!" or "I told you so!" scenario for yourself. However, what is your plan if the game ends up being good? Will you claim you think it sucks to save face and stick to your guns? Or perhaps you won't say a word out of embarrassment of being wrong despite having been so sure of yourself? Or will you admit if you enjoy it and pretend like you never predicted it would be bad, hoping that everyone will simply forget all the things you said because they're so happy with the game and aren't thinking about your comments anymore?

For me, I simply haven't decided if the game is going to be good or not because we haven't been given sufficient information to draw a proper conclusion. It may well end up horrible, it may turn out great, or it could end up somewhere in between. Bloodlines 1 is my favorite game I've ever played, so I'm certainly uneasy about the situation. However, the fact remains that we do not have all the information and this far into the project, the loss of the terminated individuals may have little to no effect on the base game.

As I have said multiple times, there is far more reason to doubt the quality of the writing and direction of the expansion than the base game, since it will be of secondary importance to the base game.
I at least hope that you would like for Bloodlines 2 to be enjoyable, and that you have not predisposed yourself to hating it even if it somehow ends up in the same realm of quality as the first game. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but the impression I had gotten from some of your earlier posts was that you are completely against everything Bloodlines 2 once Mitsoda was let go...

Quote from: Wesp5
If this is all about their work being finished, like DarkProphet is still hoping, I would guess she could post something according to that! Like she finished her work on Bloodlines 2 and is now returning to Scotland for new projects.
If only. The fact they aren't posting anything like that is certainly unsettling. Then again, if Paradox openly sets a precedent that it will let its writers go if they get their work done before the rest of the game is ready...then Paradox's writers will deliberately make their work take longer, thus costing Paradox more money and hurting the company even more.
I really just wish everyone could be open and honest so we'd know what the hell is happening and draw our conclusions off of a healthy amount of facts. =/
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Talyn82 on October 17, 2020, 10:18:18 pm
Eh, after Mitsoda was fired this does not surprise me.  I will still wait for verified reviews before buying.  Because of my love for the original game I almost pre-purchased the game.  But that was before all of this controversy.  Now I'll just wait and see.  Hopefully it is as DarkProphet has said.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 19, 2020, 10:16:08 am
Cara Ellison found a new job as Senior Narrative Designer at League of Geeks. https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317953668084199424 (https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317953668084199424)
No mention of Paradox, Hardsuit Labs or Bloodlines 2. So yeah she can´t talk about this because of a signed NDA so therefore i still believe that she was fired. If her job was just done where would be a Say Goodbye Statement from her. But nothing.
At least we can put the speculations to bed that there was bad blood between her and Mitsoda. Some have believed Ellison was the reason  that Mitsoda was fired because Bloodlines 2 wasn´t "woke" enough but doesn´t look that in my opinion. In this Tweet she thanks Mitsoda. https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1317904625664667650 (https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1317904625664667650)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Sabbat_stalker on October 19, 2020, 10:59:20 am
I suspect that Paradox have little confidence in the game and just want the production to be over at this point.
Unless it is a commercial sucess (which isn't guaranteed with a disillusioned community and sub par gameplay show so far) I doubt we will ever see the story DLC for the game.
I believe they just want to get the game out and try to recuperate as much production cost as possible, if that is their mindset then they have no need for writers to write more content for a game that doesn't sale.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Highwayman667 on October 19, 2020, 02:33:51 pm
At least we can put the speculations to bed that there was bad blood between her and Mitsoda. Some have believed Ellison was the reason  that Mitsoda was fired because Bloodlines 2 wasn´t "woke" enough but doesn´t look that in my opinion. In this Tweet she thanks Mitsoda. https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1317904625664667650 (https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1317904625664667650)


That is such a wonderful tweet. Glad to know at least she wasn't the enemy some were making her out to be.


Sucks for Paradox though because the more we hear about this issue, the more the shitty parts of it point towards them. Bummer.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 19, 2020, 03:13:13 pm
I doubt we will ever see the story DLC for the game.
Well this is a really good question if Bloodlines 2 gets still its planned DLCs and the expansion.
I mean people already preordered and brought the Blood Moon Edition which includes in two Story DLCs and a big expansion.
Maybe they scrap this and gave people back their money?

(https://i.imgur.com/brpkcNI.jpg)

Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Highwayman667 on October 19, 2020, 03:25:58 pm
Maybe they scrap this and gave people back their money


That would never happen. The community, if not made videogame outlets, would eat Paradox alive.


I think they'll just hire new writers and promote the shit out of them. Hopefully that'll work... if Mitsoda doesn't sue them first.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 19, 2020, 04:02:25 pm
That would never happen. The community, if not made videogame outlets, would eat Paradox alive.
First "Never say never again"  :vampwink: but i think you are right.
If Bloodlines 2 was a one and only game for Paradox well this could happen but Paradox and other Publisher like Nacon (former BigBen Interactive) have big plans with Vampire and the World of Darkness IP. There can´t possible sink their flagship with this behavior.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 19, 2020, 06:35:47 pm
Update: Cara Ellison left Hardsuit Labs in September.
https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1318203078005432325 (https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1318203078005432325)
Wesp already made a comment on Reddit about this and i agree with him that this is a "very neutral answer and that "she probably isn't allowed to say anything else."
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 19, 2020, 10:23:10 pm
Update: Cara Ellison left Hardsuit Labs in September.
https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1318203078005432325 (https://twitter.com/caraellison/status/1318203078005432325)
Wesp already made a comment on Reddit about this and i agree with him that this is a "very neutral answer and that "she probably isn't allowed to say anything else."

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like she quit since she says "I left in sept to work on other things." I do hope she shares more. I don't trust her as far as I can throw her, but I'd at least like someone with a confirmed identity to give a statement as to the specifics, though as I and others have said, there's likely an NDA. =p
Also, as for the expansion and DLCs, if they cancel them, customers will undoubtedly get refunds. I'd rather they not cancel them unless they are of terrible quality, though...
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 20, 2020, 06:14:32 am
Thanks for sharing.
You are welcome. Also want to share that i am proudly banned from the Paradox Forum. Normally i don´t like to talk about private stuff but here i make an exception.
No they didn´t bann me for some months, they made sure that i can´t post anything and therefore made me silent. I also can´t use anything. I can´t even use logout or read why i am banned. Classy.

I asked for a official statement and their statement to the whole Cara Ellison story is to make sure that nothing is wrong.
So i assumed my little "scoop" was something they want to hide because they don´t want bad press about Ellison after Mitsoda.

"You have been banned for the following reason: Rules violations. Your ban will be lifted on Jan 29, 2022 at 16:57."
Very interessing how they deal with critics who make them uncomfortable. I don´t think that it is possible because my ego isn´t near as big but i assume i cost them some sales.
Edit: Great news PC Gamer already made an article and force Paradox for an offical statement.
And after some hours the remaining major & international gaming site will likely cover this.
https://www.pcgamer.com/bloodlines-2-senior-narrative-designer-cara-ellison-has-left-the-project/ (https://www.pcgamer.com/bloodlines-2-senior-narrative-designer-cara-ellison-has-left-the-project/)

"We can confirm that Cara Ellison has decided to leave Hardsuit Labs and is no longer working on Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2," a Paradox spokesperson said. "Cara brought fresh ideas to the project and many of her contributions will be present in the game launching next year. We thank her for her work on Bloodlines 2 and wish her the best in all of her future endeavors."

"Paradox declined to comment on when Ellison left the project, or how it will impact the development of Bloodlines 2.
I've emailed Ellison for more information, and will update if I receive a reply."
 
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wesp5 on October 20, 2020, 11:45:30 am
I asked for a official statement and their statement to the whole Cara Ellison story is to make sure that nothing is wrong.
So i assumed my little "scoop" was something they want to hide because they don´t want bad press about Ellison after Mitsoda.
So to get this right, you asked on the Paradox Forum if Cara Ellison is still working on Bloodlines 2 and they just banned you?

Also somebody on RPGCodex found a Glassdoor review posted at the time Cara Ellison left and thinks it's written in her style:https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-%E2%80%93-bloodlines-2-from-hardsuit-labs-and-paradox-interactive.126124/page-415 (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-%E2%80%93-bloodlines-2-from-hardsuit-labs-and-paradox-interactive.126124/page-415)
I have been working at Hardsuit Labs full-time for less than a year
 
 Pros
 
 It’s a development studio you can work at in Seattle
 
 Have fun events
 
 Pizza!
 
 If CEOs can’t understand your work, you’ll be able to finish it without constant questions and bad critiques
 
 Diverse studio, progressive studio outside of pipelines, welcoming of LGBTQ even if not fully inclusive in game content
 
 Cons
 
 Read the recent news, it’s all confusing for us too but good for design and story. just took too long to get rid of bad actors

 
 Poorly-trained old and new management, top to bottom, affects everything and difficult to get work done or tracked
 
 Cheap on one hand, wasteful on the other
 
 Can’t seem to have a studio meeting without announcing who’s gone this week
 
 Cowardly and poor performance feedback or none at all until too late, creates paranoia about who's next
 
 Hire developers and put no trust in them, especially game design
 
 No idea how to make an RPG and it’s shown for the past few years

 
 Game design needed a fresh restart, and senior designers hired need to be listened to
 
 Other producers need to be trained and need to do actual work
 
 Firings have made the news, and while necessary, could have been avoided through vetting when hiring

 
 Paradox is half in, half out, but all trouble
 
 Advice to Management
 
 Trust design to figure it out it’s why you hired us
 
 “Not as bad as it used to be” is NOT a good answer to issues
 
 Get through this project and scatter to the winds, maybe start smaller studios that do shooter clones and shooter DLC – games you understand

 
 Tell us when you’ll be in the office and when you’ll have the thing you promised actually done
 
 Free the programmers from outsourcing prison or let them go to actual game studios where they can make cool stuff
 
 Change your company motto from “we make great games” to “we’re still figuring it out bear with us”
 
 While diversity is good, could be improved and listened to
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 20, 2020, 03:10:03 pm
So to get this right, you asked on the Paradox Forum if Cara Ellison is still working on Bloodlines 2 and they just banned you?
Yes, i also had some discussions before where i talked about this topic with critism. I believe that i pissed them off with the Cara Ellison story which i made public and that i made critical assumption that maybe the new guy was responsible for this mess. But i was quickly corrected so yeah i think that i pissed off more Hardsuit Labs CEO Andy Kipling who was my next assumption of who made this terrible decisions.
It´s a simple strategy, if you can´t kill the message kill / silence the messager.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Highwayman667 on October 20, 2020, 03:11:13 pm
What a mess.


Thank you for your efforts in keeping us informed Wilhelm. Hopefully one day we'll be playing Bloodlines 3 (?) and laughing back at this nonsense.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 20, 2020, 03:21:36 pm
Thank you for your efforts in keeping us informed Wilhelm.
I did for the Bloodlines Community.  :embarrassed:
We all have the right to know that the second most prominent dev after Mitsoda had left. Its more than obvious that Hardsuit Labs / Paradox really wanted to hide Cara Ellison's departure because they don´t want another Mitsoda shitstorm so Ellison was forced to sign a NDA.
I mean she already left HL sometime in September and only after my / our "investigation" and the press coverage they made this statement.
Also this was the same story as with Mitsoda. Someone noticed that Mitsoda had changed his twitter bio and that´s it.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 20, 2020, 03:41:24 pm
Read the recent news, it’s all confusing for us too but good for design and story. just took too long to get rid of bad actors
 
Firings have made the news, and while necessary, could have been avoided through vetting when hiring
These are the two that interest me the most. If this is truly from Cara Ellison, then she thinks Cluney and Mitsoda were bad for the design and story, respectively. The only firings that made the news - to my knowledge - were those two, after all...

If this is from Cara Ellison, we then have to wonder "Was the story terrible and she's right?" OR "Was the story good but she hated it?" Obviously, political leanings (liberal/centrist writing vs. woke writing) or jealousy (Brian may have been a better writer than her and she was jealous) could play into things.
Or this could be someone else entirely who writes like that. Any person from Seattle in the gaming industry would probably hold the exact same opinions. It's still interesting to me, though...
Quote from: Highwayman667
Hopefully one day we'll be playing Bloodlines 3 (?) and laughing back at this nonsense.
Man, I sure hope so. If Bloodlines 2 doesn't do well enough, we may never see another VtM immersive sim. D':
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wesp5 on October 20, 2020, 05:01:20 pm
These are the two that interest me the most. If this is truly from Cara Ellison, then she thinks Cluney and Mitsoda were bad for the design and story, respectively. The only firings that made the news - to my knowledge - were those two, after all...
The person writing this review mentions firings each week! I don't think this is targeted at Cluney and Mitsoda as of course they were not hired, but central in starting the game. I would rather believe that this is all due to bad management especially since HSL grew for Bloodlines. Earlier reviews are quite positive, but this one mentions "Poorly-trained old and new management, top to bottom" and "producers need to be trained and need to do actual work" and "Paradox is half in, half out, but all trouble". I imagine management meddling with development work without knowing enough about it, like "Hire developers and put no trust in them, especially game design" and "senior designers hired need to be listened to" and "Trust design to figure it out it’s why you hired us". I see Cluney, Mitsoda and Ellison as designer, but someone in management knew better what they should do.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 20, 2020, 05:37:54 pm
I would rather believe that this is all due to bad management especially since HSL grew for Bloodlines... I see Cluney, Mitsoda and Ellison as designer, but someone in management knew better what they should do.
I believe that this person is very likely Hardsuit Labs Boss Andy Kipling himself. Paradox have a 33% share in HL but they don´t owe them at least for now. So the main problems must come from HL itself and not that much from Paradox. Maybe the reason why all this had happened lies with HL. They never have made a RPG before also as the remains of Zombie Studios well they never made a game which was better than average. Spec Ops was a series nobody have cared only after Yager made Spec Ops the Line.
Their "best" game would be in my opinion Daylight which was ok i guess.
But we trusted HL because they had Mitsoda and Ellison as writers and hey its Bloodlines 2. Maybe we won´t want to know that HL was never the right studio for this task.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_Studios (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_Studios)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 20, 2020, 06:35:49 pm
Maybe we won´t want to know that HL was never the right studio for this task.
Or they are and the person writing the assessment has a differing opinion. We won't know how Bloodlines 2 is until it's out, and we may be pleasantly surprised. I'm not super optimistic, but I hope it'll be fun.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 20, 2020, 08:39:35 pm
Or they are and the person writing the assessment has a differing opinion. We won't know how Bloodlines 2 is until it's out, and we may be pleasantly surprised. I'm not super optimistic, but I hope it'll be fun.
Well you are still an optimistic. I have the feeling after all what happen that this maybe at best a 60-70% rated game if the Story from Mitsoda and Ellison is almost finished but i won´t count on that. No i think that we have a great disappointment to look forward with this title. Of course i could be wrong but i really doubt that.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 20, 2020, 10:59:46 pm
Or they are and the person writing the assessment has a differing opinion. We won't know how Bloodlines 2 is until it's out, and we may be pleasantly surprised. I'm not super optimistic, but I hope it'll be fun.
Well you are still an optimistic. I have the feeling after all what happen that this maybe at best a 60-70% rated game if the Story from Mitsoda and Ellison is almost finished but i won´t count on that. No, i think that we have a great disappointment to look forward with this title. Of course i could be wrong but i really doubt that.
Honestly, I expect a disappointment. I just hope I won't get one, lol.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 21, 2020, 07:20:59 pm
I liked Outstar because i don´t trust her on this one.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/559093179811364865/768488727982637107/unknown.png?width=935&height=465)
Maybe the part of Mandryka is true but i don´t believe her for any second for Cara Ellison. Why?
If Cara Ellison really want to do something different and her work is done why did she went silent and don´t have mention anything like "I am going to leave the Bloodlines 2 team but everything is fine" or something like that.
Also Outstar works for Paradox so in my opinion she couldn´t be fully trusted. This looks like damage control.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 21, 2020, 10:51:41 pm
I liked Outstar because i don´t trust her on this one.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/559093179811364865/768488727982637107/unknown.png?width=935&height=465)
Maybe the part of Mandryka is true but i don´t believe her for any second for Cara Ellison. Why?
If Cara Ellison really want to do something different and her work is done why did she went silent and don´t have mention anything like "I am going to leave the Bloodlines 2 team but everything is fine" or something like that.
Also Outstar works for Paradox so in my opinion she couldn´t be fully trusted. This looks like damage control.
Do most game development employees who quit their jobs and aren't pissed off at their employer post that they quit on social media? I've only heard of the opposite...
Edit: Thank you for sharing this, though. I used to trust Outstar before she was hired by Paradox, but since I don't know her personally, I have no way of knowing if she's being truthful or if she's saying what Paradox is ordering her to say. I'd like to believe she's being honest, but the proof is in the pudding. Part of me dreads that the game will suck, but another part of me hopes it's phenomenal and just took a long-ass time to put out. After all Bloodlines 1 desperately needed more time "in the oven."
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 22, 2020, 09:09:07 am
Do most game development employees who quit their jobs and aren't pissed off at their employer post that they quit on social media? I've only heard of the opposite...
Well it depends on the person himself / herself of course but i would say more yes and no. Here for example a departure from a Bioware producer.

https://twitter.com/DiscoBabaloo/status/1162585550273912832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1162585550273912832%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3%2Ccontainerclick_0&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buffed.de%2FDragon-Age-4-Spiel-60983%2FNews%2FLead-Producer-Fernando-Melo-verlaesst-Bioware-1326368%2F (https://twitter.com/DiscoBabaloo/status/1162585550273912832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1162585550273912832%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3%2Ccontainerclick_0&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buffed.de%2FDragon-Age-4-Spiel-60983%2FNews%2FLead-Producer-Fernando-Melo-verlaesst-Bioware-1326368%2F)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 22, 2020, 01:30:32 pm
Do most game development employees who quit their jobs and aren't pissed off at their employer post that they quit on social media? I've only heard of the opposite...
Well it depends on the person himself / herself of course but i would say more yes and no. Here for example a departure from a Bioware producer.

https://twitter.com/DiscoBabaloo/status/1162585550273912832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1162585550273912832%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3%2Ccontainerclick_0&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buffed.de%2FDragon-Age-4-Spiel-60983%2FNews%2FLead-Producer-Fernando-Melo-verlaesst-Bioware-1326368%2F (https://twitter.com/DiscoBabaloo/status/1162585550273912832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1162585550273912832%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3%2Ccontainerclick_0&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buffed.de%2FDragon-Age-4-Spiel-60983%2FNews%2FLead-Producer-Fernando-Melo-verlaesst-Bioware-1326368%2F)
Yeah, that dude seems pretty sincere in his post. Looks like he'll miss it. I don't know if Cara Ellison is a sentimental person, though. Has she quit any businesses before and been very open about it without throwing shade?
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 22, 2020, 07:08:06 pm
Has she quit any businesses before and been very open about it without throwing shade?
I don´t know but i find it strange that she doesn´t mention anything about Bloodlines 2 in her tweets.
Of course it's because of the NDA but there isn´t even some like this: "Well, i left Hardsuit Labs for reasons i can´t talk about but i am still proud that i was part of this (amazing) team." Nothing.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: DarkProphet on October 22, 2020, 08:01:47 pm
Has she quit any businesses before and been very open about it without throwing shade?
I don´t know but i find it strange that she doesn´t mention anything about Bloodlines 2 in her tweets.
Of course it's because of the NDA but there isn´t even some like this: "Well i left Hardsuit Labs for reasons i can´t talk about but i am still proud that i was part of this (amazing) team." Nothing.

Ha, yeah she may have hated everyone or vice versa, or any number of things could have went down. I wish the dang game would come out so we could see if it sucks, or if it's awesome, or if it's just okay but a letdown. Mind you, I'm okay with them taking however long it takes that won't tank the company. After all, we've got Cyberpunk 2077 coming late next month, baby!  :rock:
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Highwayman667 on October 22, 2020, 08:08:31 pm
Of course it's because of the NDA but there isn´t even some like this: "Well, i left Hardsuit Labs for reasons i can´t talk about but i am still proud that i was part of this (amazing) team. Nothing.
NDA's are absolutely thorough these days then :rofl:


I wonder if Brian or K'ai signed NDAs as well. Maybe they did when they started working for Paradox. they've both been way too silent as well, if we're speaking frankly.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 22, 2020, 08:42:45 pm
I wonder if Brian or K'ai signed NDAs as well. Maybe they did when they started working for Paradox. they've both been way too silent as well, if we're speaking frankly.
Who knows. But Brian still has made his own statement on Rocket Paper Shotgun.
And correction: both of them weren´t really employed by Paradox. Yes, Paradox owns a 33% minority stake in Hardsuit Labs and they were the Publisher and therefore the moneygiver of this project but Cluney, Mitsoda and Ellison have worked for Hardsuit Labs.
By the way Bloodlines 2 twitter has posted this recently:
"The organizational changes and restructuring of folks on the project have nothing to do with microtransactions."https://twitter.com/VtM_Bloodlines/status/1318615711883952134 (https://twitter.com/VtM_Bloodlines/status/1318615711883952134)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wesp5 on October 22, 2020, 10:05:46 pm
Speaking of NDAs, I'm sure she had to sign something to not talk about what went on behind the scenes, but I don't think a NDA can prevent somebody to mention having been on a project if everybody already knew that, like with her. So why did she remove all B2 connections? I imagine that she was already pissed when they fired Mitsoda...
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: mdqp on October 23, 2020, 12:08:59 pm
At this point I don't know what to think of anything. I was confident she would have stayed on, since after a month from Brian's firing she was still around, but maybe she was just waiting for a good opportunity to leave or had some other reason to leave which came up recently (since she seems to have left of her own volition).

What most people said about most of the writing for the main game likely being complete is still true, although I still presume some changes will be made to the story (I can't shake the belief that they fired Brian for narrative-related reasons, at the end of the day, and with the delays they should have enough time to make the changes, if they want to).
Anyway, it feels tiresome to even speculate about the development or the game itself at this point. I just hope the game is good, and if it's going in a nice direction, I wish we'll get more sneak peeks and whatnot, to make me feel more at ease about it.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Talyn82 on October 23, 2020, 08:05:02 pm
I too hope the game will be good.  But boy is the Bloodlines name cursed.  The first game had problems with development and meeting the deadline and now the sequel is in the same boat.  Like I said before too bad Obsidian is not working with Paradox anymore.  They have experience creating rpg's.  I read either here or somewhere else that this is Hardsuit Labs first rpg?
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: mdqp on October 23, 2020, 08:12:44 pm
I too hope the game will be good.  But boy is the Bloodlines name cursed.  The first game had problems with development and meeting the deadline and now the sequel is in the same boat.  Like I said before too bad Obsidian is not working with Paradox anymore.  They have experience creating rpg's.  I read either here or somewhere else that this is Hardsuit Labs first rpg?
Pretty much. They don't even have any good games under their belt, as far as I know. Ironically, the main reason they got the opportunity to work on Bloodlines 2 is because of Mitsoda, which makes the circumstances all the more absurd.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on October 23, 2020, 08:25:41 pm
I read either here or somewhere else that this is Hardsuit Labs first rpg?
Yes even as former Zombie Studios they weren´t known for RPGs so its pretty absurd that they fired the two guys with RPG experiences. Of course i am talking about Mitsoda and Cluney. Maybe they have more people with that like the newest hiring Kevin Maloney but we don´t know. https://twitter.com/kmoney380/status/1319405314081345536 (https://twitter.com/kmoney380/status/1319405314081345536)
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Talyn82 on October 23, 2020, 09:07:36 pm
If that's the case I as Paradox would have offered Obsidian more than Micro$oft to keep them on board.  Well I am not going to panic I will just wait and see.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on January 31, 2022, 10:43:22 pm
"You have been banned for the following reason: Rules violations. Your ban will be lifted on Jan 29, 2022 at 16:57."
I wasn´t sure if i should bring this up but what the hell.  :azn: My ban has finally been lifted and i could use it if there would be an active Bloodlines 2 forum.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Monjh on February 01, 2022, 12:52:04 am
"You have been banned for the following reason: Rules violations. Your ban will be lifted on Jan 29, 2022 at 16:57."
I wasn´t sure if i should bring this up but what the hell.  :azn: My ban has finally been lifted and i could use it if there would be an active Bloodlines 2 forum.  :rofl:


Welcome back!


Not gonna lie, I stopped posting because I don't see any news on the game anymore. Sad to say it, but... It looks like they want to kill it and not make a fuss about it.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Marrik on February 07, 2022, 07:17:15 pm
Honestly, if our choices are for BL to die, be remade as a soulless generic cashgrab with the BL logo pasted on top, or become a shitty vehicle for Wokeness™ (the inevitable failure of which will of course be blamed on us being bigots), I think I'd prefer for it to just quietly die.

The last time there was a big AAA game released that I didn't think sucked was like a decade ago, I just don't have much faith in big studios anymore.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Compassion on February 08, 2022, 12:53:50 am
I agree with the general notion that the gaming industry sucks.

However theres a couple exceptions and thats why I am hopeful about both Baldurs Gate 3 and Vampire Bloodlines 2, since both developers have done good work in the recent past.
Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Wilhelm-Streicher on February 09, 2022, 06:58:57 pm
The last time there was a big AAA game released that I didn't think sucked was like a decade ago, I just don't have much faith in big studios anymore.
To be fair Bloodlines was never a big AAA game from a big studio or big Publisher. Bloodlines 2 is an AA Game.  :vampwink:
However theres a couple exceptions and thats why I am hopeful about both Baldurs Gate 3 and Vampire Bloodlines 2, since both developers have done good work in the recent past.
Well we still don´t know who is developing Bloodlines 2 right now. Maybe its the rumored The Chinese Room but my point is that its not original dev studio.
Therefore i am unlike you not very hopeful about Bloodlines 2. Also Paradox´s other (and licenced) Vampire / World of Darkness games weren´t that good either.

Title: Re: Cara Ellison also fired?
Post by: Compassion on February 16, 2022, 07:36:59 pm
Well, of course I dont know who actually develops VtMB2 right now.

I was thus talking about Paradox, which seem to be one of the better companies in this field.

That means gaming in general, not specifically fantasy or more specifically horror.
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