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Offline NateHevens

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #450 on: May 10, 2020, 01:32:13 am »
It's. Not. His. Fucking. Belief.


His gender identity is not a fucking belief. You cannot compare it to fucking religion. You can choose your religion. You can't choose your fucking gender identity any more than you can choose your sexuality (which... again... you can't).


Again... I see why he cut you out of his life...


Oh and I'm not insulted by you calling my friend a mutant. She's called herself that. But the science is clear: using XX and XY to determine gender just doesn't work. This has been proven.


Catch the fuck up with 21st century biology, please.

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #451 on: May 10, 2020, 01:43:11 am »
It's. Not. His. Fucking. Belief.



You believe that. I believe it is her belief.


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His gender identity is not a fucking belief. You cannot compare it to fucking religion. You can choose your religion. You can't choose your fucking gender identity any more than you can choose your sexuality (which... again... you can't).



If you truly believe a religion is one true religion, then there is no legitimate choosing of another religion for you. You are either with the true religion, or you are not with it. That is the only choice. Similarly, for a trans person who believes she is male, she can either continue to live as a female, or pretend to be male and have SJWs bully others into agreeing with her.


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Again... I see why he cut you out of his life...



Yes, you two support intolerance when people disagree with your beliefs. I, on the other hand, will still let someone be my friend if they tell me what I hold as my most important beliefs are false.

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Oh and I'm not insulted by you calling my friend a mutant. She's called herself that. But the science is clear: using XX and XY to determine gender just doesn't work. This has been proven.



It has not.


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Catch the fuck up with 21st century biology, please.



Catch up with facts, please.

Offline NateHevens

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #452 on: May 10, 2020, 02:13:53 am »
This is the last time I will repeat myself. Gender Identity is not a belief. "One True Religion" is. There is science supporting the former; not the latter.


I am caught up with the facts. You, on the other hand, are behind by about several decades.

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #453 on: May 10, 2020, 02:21:50 am »
This is the last time I will repeat myself. Gender Identity is not a belief. "One True Religion" is. There is science supporting the former; not the latter.


I am caught up with the facts. You, on the other hand, are behind by about several decades.



Science respectfully disagrees. Male = XY chromosomes. Female = XX chromosomes. Except in super-rare mutations. I'm caught up on the facts. You're just accepting pop culture as fact and wokescolding those who disagree with you. But that's the usual from people who share your beliefs.

Offline Highwayman667

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #454 on: May 10, 2020, 04:39:57 am »
Science respectfully disagrees. Male = XY chromosomes. Female = XX chromosomes. Except in super-rare mutations. I'm caught up on the facts. You're just accepting pop culture as fact and wokescolding those who disagree with you. But that's the usual from people who share your beliefs.

Uhm... no. Here's an article from Medical News Today and the Gender deffinition from the World Health Organization:

"In general terms, “sex” refers to the biological differences between males and females, such as the genitalia and genetic differences. “Gender” is more difficult to define, but it can refer to the role of a male or female in society, known as a gender role, or an individual's concept of themselves, or gender identity"

"Gender refers to the roles, behaviours, activities, attributes and opportunities that any society considers appropriate for girls and boys, and women and men. Gender interacts with, but is different from, the binary categories of biological sex."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363#sex-differences

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender

I know it's unrelated to the topic but there can be no room for confusion in this regard: gender is not the same as sex.

Offline NateHevens

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #455 on: May 10, 2020, 05:07:53 am »
Holy fucking shit.



Science

Science

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It seems like a pretty clear system – but it wouldn’t be biology without exceptions and extra rules muddying the waters. When it comes to sex chromosomes, X’s and Y’s are not the only ingredients available. Many other sex determination systems exist, and the concept of “male” vs. “female” isn’t quite as simple as humans once thought.

Science

Science

Science

Science

Science

Science

Science

Science

An article about a biology teacher who uses science to undermine transphobia... and yes I'm gonna quote what she says...

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First of all, in a sexual species, you can have females be XX and males be X (insects), you can have females be ZW and males be ZZ (birds), you can have females be females because they developed in a warm environment and males be males because they developed in a cool environment (reptiles), you can have females be females because they lost a penis sword fighting contest (some flatworms), you can have males be males because they were born female, but changed sexes because the only male in their group died (parrotfish and clownfish), you can have males look and act like females because they are trying to get close enough to actual females to mate with them (cuttlefish, bluegills, others), or you can be one of thousands of sexes (slime mold, some mushrooms.)

Oh, did you mean humans? Oh ok then. You can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but you are insensitive to androgens, and so you have a female body. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but your Y is missing the SRY gene, and so you have a female body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but one of your X's HAS an SRY gene, and so you have a male body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes- but also a Y. You can be female because you have only one X chromosome at all. And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but your heart and brain are male. And vice - effing - versa. Don't use science to justify your bigotry. The world is way too weird for that shit.

And before you make the claim that this is a "recent phenomenon", it's not. Societies have recognized the existence of multiple genders for centuries:

As early as 4500 years ago, Sumerian and Akkadian texts documented the existence of Gala, which were transgender/transvestite priests of the goddess Inanna.

Numerous Native American tribes have recognized multiple genders for almost as long, including the Navajo Náheedli, and the Zuni Lhamana. And there's the well-known Two Spirits, as well.

In India they have the hijras, but documents over 3000 years old, including the Rigveda, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, the Tipitaka, write about multiple genders and such.

And that's just a sampling. The idea that gender is a spectrum, and that there are multiple genders along that spectrum, goes back as far as the oldest texts we have from Ancient Sumeria.

I'm sorry, but you are the one behind the times. You are the one who needs to catch up to the facts. The facts are on my side. There are more than two genders, in literally every single form of life on the planet, humans included. That is a basic, proven, scientific fact.

Period.

End of Subject.

(And go ahead and have your last word. I have no interest in saying anything else here. I've already proven that I'm right and you're wrong. You're never going to accept that. You're going to keep spouting the bullshit in the face of my evidence. So go ahead... keep it up. I'm talking about the trailer, now... except to say that I hope the game's so SJW-heavy it makes you never want to touch World of Darkness ever again. I hope every character refers to your character with gender-neutral pronouns and you're forced to play as a trans woman at least once.)

Anyways...

I really liked the trailer. It definitely still has some limitations in the animations, but it's not like this has [Jim Sterling]AAA[/Jim Sterling] money. For the budget and time, it looks damn good. I love the use of the song, and the opening shot is fucking creepy. And Elif, man... she might make me choose the Tremere... every single time...

Even though I'm content to wait as long as needed for a good game... I also cannot wait to play it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 05:24:22 am by NateHevens »

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #456 on: May 10, 2020, 07:37:22 am »

You've sent me heaps of spiritualism, opinions, and documentation of mutants/super-rare biology that has not been established as existing in the people claiming to be transgender today. Sending many, many links that fail to prove what you're claiming is folly. I could send you triple that many links about religion, but it doesn't make me correct. There is no evidence that a significant portion of the population today claiming to be transgender have these mutations. If they did, then we could easily have people tested for markers to know who has a 40+% chance of suicidal tendencies from being transgender.


There is a reason they do not go by "transsexual," but go by "transgender." It is because they wish to differentiate between gender and sex, because sex is biological, while gender - traditionally the same thing as sex - has been peeled away from science and deemed a "social construct," so that people can use opinions to dictate what it means to be trans and claim membership to that group by sheer force of will.


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[size=0px]So go ahead... keep it up. I'm talking about the trailer, now... except to say that I hope the game's so SJW-heavy it makes you never want to touch World of Darkness ever again. I hope every character refers to your character with gender-neutral pronouns and you're forced to play as a trans woman at least once.)[/size][/color]


You are one spiteful and hateful person. You cannot stand that someone disagrees with you so badly that you find happiness in the end of a ten-year friendship and hope the person is miserable. I hope you can find some peace and tolerance someday.

Offline NateHevens

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #457 on: May 10, 2020, 08:01:41 am »
(I lied. One last thing.)

I don't, and will never, tolerate bigotry; transphobia included.

Offline fylimar

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #458 on: May 10, 2020, 08:24:44 am »
Dark Prophet :I'm honestly a bit shocked, that you would deny your friend his identity. It's what he is. I don't want to go into a long discussion about it, but I feel the need to say that. I have a friend, who was born male, but identifies as female. Of course I say she, it's what she is. This has nothing to do with echo chambers and belief, it is her identity.
I would have pitched in sooner, but I'm from Europe and fast asleep, when you guys started this discussion. I don't want to derail this thread further, but I find it important, to not let this comment about 'gender identity is a belief' stay. Of course it is not nice of your friend to be a dick about your religion either. But religion is indeed a belief, while gender identity is not. I know, it doesn't help to bring more links, since you obviously just will handwave them away.


That being said, I really am hyped for the game. Someone on bsn boards had some nice theories about the missing Unseen in the trailer and Mr. Damps puppets. That person was thinking, the Unseen could pull the strings of the other factions from the shadows. An interesting thought.
I really am a bit sad though, that we don't have Gangrel and Nosferatu as playable clans from the beginning. Love those clans nearly as much as the Malkavians.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 02:28:14 pm by fylimar »
“They can keep their heaven. When I die, I’d sooner go to Middle Earth.” ― George R.R. Martin

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
― Doctor Who

Offline Highwayman667

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #459 on: May 10, 2020, 02:21:17 pm »
You've sent me heaps of spiritualism, opinions, and documentation of mutants/super-rare biology that has not been established as existing in the people claiming to be transgender today. Sending many, many links that fail to prove what you're claiming is folly. I could send you triple that many links about religion, but it doesn't make me correct. There is no evidence that a significant portion of the population today claiming to be transgender have these mutations. If they did, then we could easily have people tested for markers to know who has a 40+% chance of suicidal tendencies from being transgender.

The World Health Organization is a spiritualist institution ? I know it wasn't NateHevens who sent you that link but did you read it ?

I really am a bit sad though, that we don't have Gangrel and Nosferatu as playable clans from the beginning. Love those clans nearly as much as the Malkavians.
I think we will get them eventually right ? At least having the gangrel at a later date might bring a bit of life to the game after a while. Hope the nossies do get some love, perhaps in another DLC pack.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 02:25:06 pm by Highwayman667 »

Offline fylimar

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #460 on: May 10, 2020, 02:31:38 pm »

I think we will get them eventually right ? At least having the gangrel at a later date might bring a bit of life to the game after a while. Hope the nossies do get some love, perhaps in another DLC pack.
I think, we will get them as DLC eventually, but I must say, I hate it, that games come out in parts today (meaning main game and DLCs). And I really was looking forward to play a Gangrel again, little tree hugger that I am  :cometome: . And I do think, we will get the Nosferatu too, I just wish, it could be sooner than later.
On another note: I hope, The prince (Cross) isn't such a douchbag as Lacroix. I mean, if they introduce another incompetent leader in the Camarilla, that would be too much.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 04:00:12 pm by Wesp5 »
“They can keep their heaven. When I die, I’d sooner go to Middle Earth.” ― George R.R. Martin

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
― Doctor Who

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #461 on: May 10, 2020, 02:37:10 pm »

@ Highwayman: Yes, in that link the WHO talks about various mutants.

@ Nate: Well then, it's a good thing that I don't meet the definition of a transphobe by the actual definition. I mean, unless you count me being uncomfortable about trans folks having a 40+% attempted suicide rate. I am uncomfortable with them trying to kill themselves.


Dark Prophet :I'm honestly a bit shocked, that you would deny your friend his identity. It's what he is. I don't want to go into a long discussion about it, but I feel the need to say that. I have a friend, who was born male, but identifies as female. Of course I say she, it's what she is. This has nothing to do with echo chambers and belief, it is her identity.
I would have pitched in sooner, but I'm from Europe and fast asleep, when you guys started this discussion. I don't want to derail this thread further, but I find it important, to not let this comment about gender identity being a belief stay. Of course it is not nice of your friend to be a dick about your religion either. But religion is indeed a belief, while gender identity is not. I know, it doesn't help to bring more links, since you obviously just will handwave them away.



Some people believe they're animals. Some people believe they're all sorts of things. They're free to play pretend. I'm just not going to encourage them. I'm not denying her her identity. I'm denying believing in the one she's making up. She has an identity and apparently dislikes it so much that she's making up a new one after her psychologist talked to her long enough. Considering that the 40+% attempted suicide rates of trans folks shows no significant decrease after transitioning, psychologists should not be encouraging the behavior, but trying to find a way to help these folks cope with who they really are and not who they want to be, since who they want to be still has the same chance of attempted suicide. This isn't working and psychologists need to stop playing along and placating the mentally ill since it just perpetuates the suicides.


Quote
That being said, I really am hyped for the game. Someone on bsn boards had some nice theories about the missing Unseen in the trailer and Mr. Damps puppets. That person was thinking, the Unseen could pull the strings of the other factions from the shadows. An interesting thought.
I really am a bit sad though, that we don't have Gangrel and Nosferatu as playable clans from the beginning. Love those clans nearly as much as the Malkavians.



That would be kinda interesting, though it might lead players to join the Unseen all the time on future playthroughs if they're really running the show...unless you get to take them out at some point in the storyline while working with the other factions after some revelation that the Unseen are manipulating them. Ah, manipulating. Perhaps that would be better? Some significant manipulation/moles in each group, rather than actually running the whole thing in secret?


I also hope that Prince Cross is pretty decent. Obviously the Camarilla needs flaws, but I would prefer he be a tempting choice to side with. LaCroix is so incredibly douchey and treacherous that it's difficult to choose him unless you're roleplaying your character as the ultimate yes man...which I did once and got super blown up at the end, obviously.

Did you actually have fun as a Nossie in Bloodlines 1, though? I think I only played as one once; maybe twice, because I disliked the lack of human interaction in the game compared to the other clans. Gangrel I just personally don't like that much for personal reasons as I'm just not that big on animals in general. However, if I could talk to animals in the game as a Gangrel, that could be cool. Yes, that's a thing. It's called Feral Whispers. Here are the V5 Animalism powers, though who knows which ones (if any) will make the cut? Unliving Hive sounds fun, especially in a roleplaying scenario.

[font=&amp]Standard Powers (V5)[/font]Edit
​​
  • Bound Famulus: The vampire can form a bond with an animal facilitating the use of other Animalism powers.
  • Sense the Beast: The vampire can sense the beast within other vampires, mortals and supernatural creatures.​​
  • [/l][/l]
    • ​​
      • Feral Whispers: The vampire can summon and communicate with an animal.
    • ​​
      • Animal Succulence: The vampire can slake additional Hunger by feeding on animals.
      • Quell the Beast: The vampire can cow mortals and can pull vampiric targets out of frenzy.
      • Unliving Hive: Amalgam Obfuscate 2. The vampire can become a permanent home for swarms of flies or cockroaches or similar small creatures.
    • ​​
      • Subsume the Spirit: The vampire can mentally take over an animal target.
    • ​​
      • Animal Dominion: The vampire can perfectly direct swarms and flocks of animals. 
      • Drawing Out the Beast: The vampire can cause a target to immediately frenzy.

Offline NateHevens

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #462 on: May 10, 2020, 07:49:37 pm »
Hey Highwayman667. My very first link was to the WHO. Clearly some people pick and choose to maintain their bigotry.

Offline DarkProphet

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #463 on: May 10, 2020, 08:00:47 pm »
Hey Highwayman667. My very first link was to the WHO. Clearly some people pick and choose to maintain their bigotry.




Bigotry: "Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself."


Wow. I hadn't thought of that! You're right: you and my once-friend are both bigots since you both reject me for holding a different opinion than you.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 08:02:48 pm by DarkProphet »

Offline fylimar

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Re: Bloodlines 2 Links
« Reply #464 on: May 11, 2020, 02:56:45 pm »
“They can keep their heaven. When I die, I’d sooner go to Middle Earth.” ― George R.R. Martin

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
― Doctor Who

 

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